Grow Places

GP 53: Architecture for Real Life: Over 35 Years of Stories with Paul Monaghan of AHMM

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How do you actually deliver a school, an office, or a housing block and turn it into something extraordinary?

In this episode, Tom Larsson speaks with Paul Monaghan, co-founder of AHMM, about a career spent designing buildings that shape everyday life and the people behind them. With warmth, honesty, and a quiet determination, Paul reflects on the evolution of architecture, the joy of delivering real projects, and why staying grounded matters in an ever-changing industry.

💬 From building loyalty inside his firm to earning the trust of clients and planners, Paul shares stories of lessons learned, challenges embraced, and the belief that good design can genuinely change lives.

🏗️ “The next building we do will be the best one we do”

Whether you're in architecture, property, or simply care about how places shape people, this is a conversation worth hearing.

SPEAKER_00:

Hello and welcome to the Grow Places Podcast, where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth and place. Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, Tom Larson.

SPEAKER_01:

Paul. Thanks very much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_02:

Nice to see you, Tom.

SPEAKER_01:

Good. Thanks for having me at your offices. We're on I think we're on the third of the floors now that you've got here at Morelands, aren't we?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, we've got three floors here, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and how's how's everything going?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, good. We've we've had a good year. So um after sort of slowly start seeing future being a bit brighter, which um it's been hard the last five years.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. Um and I was wondering, I wanted to I wanted to talk to you about a lot of things really. I'm really grateful that you've come on. Um, but maybe just like as a framing question. So if you were to compare your your latest commission and the the environment and the the kind of relationship with the client and the brief, etc. And you were to take yourself back to maybe your first commission all those years ago, um, what what what the similarities come to mind? What's different? How do you see the world now?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, we're going back a long way though, Tom. Don't forget. So we're going back about 35 years because we started our practice in 1989. So um, yeah, those days planning applications were like some existing drawings, some proposed drawings, and about one-page statement. So um, although the projects we were doing were pretty much small projects then. I I think the big difference, I mean, obviously, we work at scale now, one of the few practices who can sort of get planning but also build big buildings. And then by big I mean 200, 400 million pound projects. So they're they're they're quite a handful. Um what I would say the role as an architect has got so much more technical now. Um, it's so driven by regulations, it's so driven by almost everyone needing a certain expertise that and the sort of idea of the general practitioner, which is sort of I suppose what I am, um, is is very different, the scenario now. And the other thing is I think planning, I'm not one who moans about planning, but I think planning has become very complex. Um I I mean you've probably seen it yourself in projects, you know, the access statement, design access statement that's a thousand pages deep that no one really reads, but it's there in case anyone wants to. And things like that, I think, have escalated too much. But uh but on the whole, I think it's it's that thing where you could be more of a generalist than now you really do, you know, there's so much of the work we do where you need so much experience before you start.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, totally. And um that point about you know, a thousand-page report, that's a big reason why we're doing this. Um, because if you can talk to the author of the report and and let them actually express themselves in a in a much more accessible way, yeah. That that's much well, you know, as it as informative uh uh and useful for most people than than the report. And so we're trying to do that across multiple things, consultation and and and projects as well as as these kind of conversations.

SPEAKER_02:

And um Yeah, I think we're trying to I try to say to my teams now, can you make it as short as you can? There'll be a prize for the shortest one this year. So that's something that I think um you know it's great you're doing that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, thank you. And um and so so that um that that regulatory pressure, well you've touched on it, so let's dive into that straight away. But that that idea of kind of design freedom and um expression with within what you do, how how do you do you see that you still have uh abilities to do that in the current system, or do you feel that it it it it's much more constrained now?

SPEAKER_02:

I I think um even from the early days, we we thrived on quite technical constraints. We always quite enjoyed that. Um we enjoyed rules, you know, if a client has some guideline, we quite enjoyed that, and then try to get something out of them. It's a bit like when we started, say, things like design and build were were relatively new, and it and a lot of the older architects were were sort of slagging it off, saying design and build is terrible, it needs to be traditional. And we were like, well, we can build and we'll do it. And we learned how to do that and worked the techniques of how to get the best out of a design and build contract with a builder who doesn't always is not always interested in you, but um you you we learned techniques to sort of you know take them to the pub, chat with them, sort of talk about their kids and actually become friends with them. And then I suppose we were then able to sort of uh be treated in a in a better manner, and we got more outs. So a lot of our early projects, uh I often think they're pound busters because they don't look like the budget they are, they're much cheaper than they are. So those were different rules. But I think with Regino, whether it be escape distances, um or or the the sort of different elements of building rakes we have now, we quite like manipulating that. And we do design quite simple buildings, you know, but they they always are, they're quite simple shapes that we're interested in value for the clients, you know, the the the plan area versus the surface area, you know, not getting too complicated, but trying to use the right materials, things so that the buildings last. So I think I think we but we're I I'd I mean it is harder. I'd say what's changed. I think housing is so prescriptive now and is so difficult to be innovative. If you have maybe a local authorities client, you can push it a bit because their ground rules aren't quite the same. If you have a housing developer, um the the the the the you know the the whole appraisals uh and all of the regulations lead you to exactly the same cutty-cutter flat that every architect in London does. So that's hard. What I didn't expect is offices are now by far the most innovative projects we do in terms of sustainability, in terms of clients wanting to go for it. And this is this is because it's driven by tenants who tenants employ, you know, the best young people from universities or from wherever, and they they are very passionate about sustainability. So they need a building that's highly sustainable, and something now about going back to work, something that is a different environment and isn't sort of corporate. So I think offices have become have really changed over the last um yeah, 10 years, 15 years. I mean, we started doing things like the tea building and sort of recognised that people didn't like these corporate spaces anymore and that really escalated into to other projects.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. Well, we're actually based in the tea building and we used it as a example to this day on on our work at Truman, and uh I think it's a testament to to that approach. And um you these are kind of your words you said, but they're kind of like the the everyday, the ordinary, the kind of officers, schools, yeah, housing, and obviously, you know, you won the sterling price for for a school. And so so why have you why have you sort of fell into or purposefully ended up in doing ordinary and inverted commas buildings and typologies?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well uh I think we were um you know, when we were at architecture school in the uh mid-80s with David Dunster, who was our tutor, um, what was the book, Architecture in the City, Alde Rossi's Oppositions book? It was all about sort of the everyday, everyday buildings, the background buildings of the city. So even from those early days at the Barla, you know, our our final project, and we were a group then, the four of us, was four office buildings actually down the road by St. Paul's Cathedral. And we designed each of the buildings separately and called it the fifth man, and the space was the fifth man. And that was about an obsession about everyday buildings. How you designed quite classic buildings. We liked the work of people like Alto, Wagner, that were buildings that didn't look like their age. So I suppose it was interest then. And over the years, I suppose, you know, we often talk now about it being the ordinary buildings and turn them into extraordinary buildings. And I so it's always been that. It doesn't mean to say, you know, we do we have over the years done art galleries, doing theatres, but um we we do have particular interest in there, and I don't mind that.

SPEAKER_01:

No, not at all.

SPEAKER_02:

I think I think they're often they're the backdrop to the city, they're the backdrop to people's everyday lives. And sometimes the architectural worlds are a bit sniffy about them, particularly office buildings, um, which I don't I don't care to be honest. But um, you know, more people are housed in office buildings working and trying to make their environment great, it's just as important as doing school. Um but anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, no, I agree. And well, that is our our interest really at grow places is exactly that. It's the kind of yeah, the ordinary places, ordinary um buildings, but but not that in a negative sense, in any sense, is that about everyday life, as you say. And um and so those founding principles then of the business. I know you've kind of very recently, haven't you, in the past few weeks, you know, you've kind of gone through a slight restructuring here. And how how do you see the the founding principles of of the business kind of those values, those principles translating every day?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, I suppose we've I mean don't forget, I mean, I've known Simon and best friends since I was 18. So met him in 1980, and Pete and John met at the same time. Then we all met each other in 1984. I know that sounds horrifically long time to most people. So we've been close for 40 years. Um, we've run the business since 1989 for 36 years, the four of us. Um so it is a massive deal to enlarge our board because we've sort of run ruled the roost for 35 years. But we haven't done a bad job. We took it from four of us for you know Charlotte Street 1989 to 450 and doing world, you know, business all over the world. So I think we've done a good job, but it's really important to us the um the future sees the the the people in the firm see a really serious future and opportunities for them in the future. Um we have no intention of retiring, but it would be irresponsible of us for holding such a big company without any plan at all. So that that's to me, that's a really excitement. And it's um, you know, all the people we've promoted have been with us an awful long time. And um, yeah, some of them, I think from Susie has been with us 32 years to, you know, I think Hazel's been with us for 20 years. So there's an awful, you know, these people haven't just suddenly come about, they've they're part of why we're so successful.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And do you have any feel for why um people stay for such a long time? What what what people have bought into in terms of the the work and the vision?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, there's a few things. I mean, I've people often ask me what's the favourite building that you know I've been involved with or done. And I often say, well, you know, I'll say something, but often I'll say it's um the firm we created, the firm we designed. And we always tried to create a firm that we wanted to work in. And you know, we were when we were young, we you know, when we left the Bartlett, we went to BDP, worked there for three years, and um, you know, I've always been fond of BDP. They looked after us an awful lot when we started. They're a great firm to work for, but they really believed in well-being and looking after people, quite ahead of their time, to be honest. So things like that influence us. Plus, generally, we like people and you know, we get on with people, and we're always we always sort of um try and think about those elements. So I suppose that's sort of, I think, why people just don't really leave. Not many do. Um, and then the second part of it is that what we recognized early on, there weren't many big firms who were sort of doing work that might get in the magazines or win awards. A lot of the big firms went were not when we started this is so we thought, couldn't you do a firm that's big and also win awards every you know? We've won, I think it's 67 RRBA awards, which is sorry, I only know that because we we had to go for a bid the other week and I said, can we just say how many we've won? Because it was it was sort of in Cambridge. Um, so you know, I think that people like winning on buildings that are high profile. People like the experience that they get from our firm and the the way we manage people, and you know, we look after people a lot. You know, there's a lot of well-being things to do, you know, whether it'll be yoga, free fruit, you know, the Friday night, Thursday night drinks, lectures, and jogging clubs, all of the things that we do. We do an awful lot of work with charity around here for local um charities. And I think all of those things are, you know, we have big parties that everyone you know twice a year. Uh you know, we we try and make it very inclusive for everyone. So I think that's probably why people stay. And sorry, the other thing is I feel we feel always have a real responsibility to try and get good fees and pay architects well. Now there was a sort of period a few years ago where there was some suggestion that big firms treated architects badly. The reality is the big firms treat people the best. And I feel a firm of our scale has a real responsibility to try and look after its people and make sure they are paid well. Because if we can't do it, to be frank, who the hell can?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Um and I I imagine as well the fact that you you build things, that sounds maybe slightly perverse to talk about an architect who builds things, but actually it's not always the case, is it, that you actually see vision turn into reality? And and that goes back to everything you're saying about projects being deliverable, working to clients' objectives, understanding different people's priorities, and then actually being able to realize things. And so so yeah, I don't know how if you have anything to add to that about what makes a project deliverable, what makes a project actually happen and get off the drawing board.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think well, I think from from our beginnings, we always were really obsessed about building something, however it was, you know, or whatever, because we didn't know enough. We don't think we left BDP when we were 27. We didn't, we'd we'd never I'd never done an AI, we didn't really know much. Um so we were building, you know, often very, very small private, whether it be back extensions or other elements, and we were really obsessed by trying to do that. We'd also recognize that um a lot of firms who were maybe becoming high profile in the early 90s couldn't make it to the next scale of buildings, and I think it was about their technical know-how. So we'd I'd done my year out for Simon's dad at YRM, and there was a chap called Victor Keit who worked for Simon's dad. He'd retired, so we got him back in to be our sort of guru in terms of detailing and how to run a project, you know, in the early 90s, and he he taught us how to do working drawings well, how to talk to a contractor, how to detail elegantly and timelessly. And I think he had a massive impact on our early work because even some of our smaller jobs from the 90s are detailed incredibly well for the you know this the sort of the stage we're at in our careers. So it's always something we've been obsessed by. There was definitely, you know, you you went around then, but people were a lot of architects were so sniffy about design and build. We were like, well, look, we can build, it's okay, let's get going. And of course, now no one does traditional contract, or hardly anyone does. And actually, you know, almost no one, no architects can do it. It's so hard now. But um, but it's you know, it's um, I think that's that's really where it came from, that obsession. The more we can build, the more we'll know. And um, and out of that you learn, you know, when we do schools, we'd learn the contractor would hate a staircase we'd design, and then we say, Well, what how would you do it? You then learn some techniques of him that's cheaper, and then we if you look at our schools, all the staircases are the same in terms of or all that sort of idea about how you make something and how you make it cost effect effective.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And um and uh you know, you've talked quite a lot about the the the deliverability from you know whether it's creating a a great culture that allows you to deliver internally or or with with contractors and partners and and design and build. And and um can you talk a little bit about your kind of insights and learnings about the relationship with the client and with local authorities and other kind of stakeholders and how how you see your ability to talk different people's languages and to to make projects happen in that respect?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, of course. I mean the I mean now we're incredibly lucky. We have you know most of the very best clients in the country that we work for, and um, and that's important because um probably 60% of our work is repeat business. And I think if you talk to most architects of some scale, by that I mean 40-50 people, they'll probably find the same. So having that repeat business allows you to build up a fantastic relationship with clients. Um, and you can be honest and transparent. So those are the clients we really enjoy working for. So we're very lucky. I think in the early days, you know, you're doing different sorts of projects. You might be doing a school and you find a really passionate head teacher. We did a lot of schools between I think 2000, 2010. Uh, and they were directly related to how good the head teachers or the leadership team was. And so that because those are very passionate people. And I think we enjoy working for passionate people. Um, you know, and uh if you look at the people we work for now, whether it be Stanhope or British Land or Edge or Hub, these are all people who are driven who have quite small leadership teams, but are very, very driven. And um so I think that's that's something that's always come across. But I think the other thing is that um number one, we often explain our ideas in quite a straightforward way. There isn't a sort of layer, an architectural layer that that goes into it. It's it's almost trying to imagine you're presenting to your mum as well as your client and how that so it comes across really clear. Now that can sometimes be very visual in terms of diagrams or drawings, and that I think that's important to clients. And the other thing is we listen. The most important thing is we listen. So if someone doesn't like red, we won't throw our toys at the pram and say it's got to be red. And it's amazing how many architects are like that still. But I and I think that's the one thing we were different. I think as we grew up in a total recession, 1990, when we that first year was absolutely horrendous. We we never had the chance to even be arrogant. But our four, you know, the people before us all felt like they were rather, you know, that their their status was so much higher. And I think we never we felt like outsiders from the beginning. A lot of our a lot of my age group, a lot of the firms from my age group are much more modest, you know, whether it be McRean or Lavington or um um, you know, Circus and Bates, they're not people who who have that sort of arrogance of of the the people before us.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, no, no, I'd I'd attest to that and and everything you're saying, you know, having worked directly with you really comes through, you know, when we've been the client architect relationship, absolutely. And um and so what are there any kind of um anecdotes or stories that maybe come to mind about uh whether it's a conversation with a client or with a a local authority or with a planner that kind of come to mind over the years that you go, that was you know, that was quite a new way of thinking about something, or that was something which really sort of stuck with us as we've gone on our journey. From cli from a client or client or a planner, or kind of whatever comes to mind, really, to be honest.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, probably lots over the years where um, you know, I've we've enjoyed lots of really strong dialogues with the planning authorities in London and certainly you know the key planners that we work with who often um who often have have very astute observations about the work you might be doing and um often about a detail that maybe we hadn't really thought about. And I think um when you do big buildings you need people to comment on them because there's a lot there's a lot of the building, so and often it's quite easy to leave some sort of corner slightly unresolved. So I I'm um but in terms of whether or not there's a particular thing that um I mean it's funny, I worked on the Millennium Dame um with David Putnam, you know, it was in Tim Pine was it was work with designing the work and learn zone, and we had um who is it, Bruce McLean, who did With Nail and I. Yeah Bruce Robinson, isn't he? Did With Nail and I and he did the film inside our Work and Learn Zone, and um we were David Putnam was describing what he wanted out of the architecture, and he said, Well, what I want is you know it's like the bit in close encounters when the aliens come out and it all shines incredibly brightly, and you can't, and then suddenly you see the aliens coming through. So I don't want the end of this film to be like that, and then that the doors open, and then we go into this forest of computers, as it was. And um, but we were trying to have a dialogue about how to make this the the film that was being shown more real, and I suggested that someone in the audience dressed as a school kid, because it was all about a school assembly, and would come on stage and be real, and he said that's a brilliant idea. So that was really, you know, it was working with something in a very different genre because we we did do quite a lot of exhibitions in the early days, and they were great fun. Um, but I suppose he was I really enjoyed working with he was such a yeah, he he was always no, and I think well learned from him he's always no, no, you can never say never you can always do something, you can always make it work. And I think if there's one thing we hate in our firm is people who are half pint empty, it's always, you know, quite often Simon and I and our directors are the ones saying, no, no, we can do it or we can make it because that's something clients really want. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so if you were to take that kind of that optimistic last half-four mindset then, and you were to think about some of the challenges we're facing at the moment um in the industry, um and and to think, yeah, in that mindset about kind of how we unlock some of this in a way to kind of to get things moving, whether it's housing or um planning or development, whatever comes to mind really.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Well, it's very hard times, but I mean yeah, we've been through loads of really hard time. I mean, I I think for us it was harder in 1990 when the world collapsed and there was no work. You know, we were we would go to the the pub on the Friday night where BDP we used to go to when we were at BDP and they'd be laying 30 people off every week for months. And yeah, we we couldn't lay anyone off. There was only four of us. Um there was no work, and we were kids, didn't know we didn't know anyone, and it that was horrendous. And I think and I think I don't think there's ever a good time for new businesses, but I think now we have these we have this world where I feel like with a bit of a shake it could get going. But you know, there's always something in the future. So at the moment, it's obviously the budget next week. Is that going to get the property industry going? Nothing works, nothing's worked for about three or four years. Nothing can get built apart from student accommodation or or co-living. Are they the ones that seem to be doing really well? But like everything, there were, you know, it was it was labs, wasn't it? Life sciences a few years ago, and then that sort of bubble's slightly burst on that at the moment. So I think it's it's just and and therefore if you're starting, I got I it is incredibly difficult because there's there's nothing you can rely on. You know, the big difference for us is years ago we used to be able to rely on here's the money coming in, there's planning, go straight ahead to do construction drawings, then we're off. And and now every work stage there's a pause, there's sometimes a new fee that needs negotiating, and and you can't predict anything. So it's it's it's um but I would say in the difficult uh times we've always done well because um I think we're incredibly experienced, and I think you will find the the firms who are quite well known do well when things are bad because clients want something that's reliable, and I think first of all, what clients want is people who get good planning permissions, and that's what we do, and lots of other firms, yeah, quite a few others in London, and they want to they don't want to take a chance, so that's the harder thing. If you're trying to make a breakthrough, times like this, the clients are going to be much more conservative about the firms they might go for. So, you know, when I look back at 2008, 2009, the crash, we lost 30 people, about 125 people then, and we lost 30. And then the following years we just grew and grew and grew. You know, we're within two years we're 200, and we'd because we were we had clients who we understood value. And I think some of it is understanding, you know, if you're adding something to the architecture, it has to add value for a client. It's it's gone are the days when um architects can just do what they feel like. Well, they haven't been around for years, really.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, I completely understand that, and uh I think that's absolutely absolutely right. Um and then so if you compare where we are now, then you've kind of sort of done it, but to those to those other tough periods, and you think about when the sort of curve turns upwards and how that feels and what kind of emerges. Do you feel like we're at that place soon in the in the UK? Or do you think it feels a bit different this time?

SPEAKER_02:

Or to be honest, it's Tom, it's felt the same for the last five years. It's felt like I could really get going here. And housing, we need it. One and a half million hours, we need it. Um, not enough affordable, and not enough housing that private housing that people could afford either. Um I know you just but it just seems that there's always something that gets in the way. So, you know, clearly at the moment it's construction costs and appraisals and borrowing that people can't get. And construction costs, I think, there's contractors now beginning contractors. I've always found are the people who are the the last people to understand that you better get a bit more competitive. Um, you know, fees as architects have gone down continuously for the last 10 years, you know, just and you always think they'll go up again, but they don't rarely. Um, so we have to pedal twice as fast. You know, computer programs come in like Revit that suddenly are meant to save you time, then that don't make any difference and cost you more. So it's sort of, I suppose it's um, yeah, it's just one of those things that I mean I could see if if the budget, if there's something sensible in the budget, the the the need for housing, and don't forget, I was involved with you know the office for place and a lot of things to do with trying to promote better designed homes, um, it should be an open door. I mean, I think Labour are doing some good things, you know. Yesterday is about the stations, you know, I mean, almost like it's compulsory to give planning for things. I think that you know they've they're trying to desperately get to the point. But the reality is until we can house builders aren't going to want to build too much until unless the market gets going again. And um, so but I I I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful towards the beginning of next year things will go and get going again. But I don't I'm not I don't think we'll ever have what we had between like 2000 and and 2008, where the world just went bonkers. And um in a way to certain extent we're still recovering from that because it went a bit too bonkers, you know, where you you buy a flat and then you'd sell it for almost twice as much four years later. That's in the end, that's seemed great at the time, but it's been no good for anyone now.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And well, hopefully we just don't get monetary policies that kind of force that thing to happen, but it's kind of looks good on the surface, but isn't isn't in in the long term. And um and you you mentioned there, Paul, you know, your your your your role, your standard within the industry and and what that does outside the day job. If you get whether it's your work in Liverpool or whether it's other other things. So how so how do you see that kind of whether you want to say position of influence or kind of uh opportunities for other um influence within politics or industry, do you see that as a big part of your personal some next few years or uh yeah I think it always has been.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, you know, um since we started, you know, when we started we were teaching at the Bartlett, we taught for the Bartlett, ran a unit there for 18 years. You know, I still run the Bartlett's alumni sort of events. Um so Bartlett was something very important to us and teaching was we taught at Nottingham for a while taught at Liverpool for a bit um Sheffield for a bit. Um so those I think teaching was really important to us in the early days. It was Simon and I who ran the unit. Then we got really involved with K by different ways. I was very involved with school design and helped set up the design review panel for schools which is a really key moment um in terms one of the proudest things I've been involved with because if you look back um how many schools won ROBA awards after the design review panel started was just remarkable. It was you know I'm talking about between 2009 to 2040 and and that panel affected school design and that was directly from at the time Gordon Brown saying we need to get better schools and then I carried on with the design council in Cape to go did a lot of design reviews and and then I suppose the last few years I was involved with Liverpool because I'm from Liverpool so it's very nice Steve Rotherham the mayor asked me to be a sort of design champion um which is more about championing architects in Liverpool. It's not about I don't get involved with planning applications or design reviews. So I try and promote Liverpool practices and how good the firms are there and try and try to do a few competitions to to help them get work. Then I've you know I've been I suppose involved with government so originally I was part of the Building Better Building Beautiful commission. I always get the wrong way around but and there was this document called Living with Beauty that we put together um uh with an amazing group of people and um you know that document is if you read that now it's still very sensible to related to planning and housing um that then turned into Office for Place you know which Nicholas Boyd Smith was head of and I was quite I was really interested in Nicholas because you know he's very much one of those people who talked in everyday language about buildings um had an issue with the way architects spoke about the way design review panels were run. In a way you know felt you know that people were insulted in some of those things and made very very good points about streets and trees and bins and housing I was never totally on you know that everything needed to be classical but Nick Nicholas wasn't either he was a pluralist. So I thought you know it was interesting being on the panel with him rather than with I don't know some really high um architect with a huge reputation it was sort of we were um really interesting debates and how design you know design codes could help and how you know what was important about new housing. And then I suppose also the last five years I've been a MARS design advocate um so a lot of that was doing design reviews which I I enjoy design reviews it's a bit like teaching again and and um yeah I've I often feel it's quite a schema that needs support or needs um the architect replacing but most of it needs support and then most recently I've become uh the town architect from for Croydon a place we've done an awful lot of building well you know with with Stanhope all those years ago was one of my first buildings there. In fact our very first building a little doctor surgery was there and that's been really enjoyable it's just getting going. Croydon's been through a really hellish time to be honest and um you know if you look at the what was it um Croydon's um brick by brick projects were really innovative and so tragic that didn't quite work out but its legacy is some great buildings unfortunately a bit of a debt but I think um I you know I I wish more would more people would do that. So it's always been important has been to Simon too you know became president of the ROBA for a while and um so we've always felt that it gives us a bit of about an objectivity about the work we do and and um and I I think you know no I it used to be the tradition that you would teach and then practice but and it hasn't with the generation below us I don't think I don't see them teaching much. But um I'd say that's probably and it was Peter Cook who was head of the bar and I often say that going to all those crits seeing all those great tutors whether it be Neil McLaughlin or whoever they were Neil Spiller and seeing the work and listening to the way Peter talked about things was really influential on our early careers and um I I suppose early on we were quite hard to pigeonhole us and maybe that was something to do with our the Bartlett.

SPEAKER_01:

But yeah Yeah absolutely and um and and just just to close then Paul I don't know don't know to what extent you're a very kind of introspective person yourself but what what do you have a sense of kind of why you've why you are where you are why you've you've why with the the fifth man and those other projects you were interested in in the ordinary and the everyday and and why today you you take care of of cities and those kind of ordinary places as do you have a sense of that?

SPEAKER_02:

Do I have a sense of your sense of why you do that personally like not not for the business side more for you as a person why you have that sense of that well I suppose you know we're I always feel very lucky doing the job we're doing and um from the earliest days when you do a building with a you know one of our earliest ones was a little doctor's surgery and you could see the delight in the doctors working there from then on and then the people um the people who were were there when they used to be such a grotty place beforehand and you think well this is quite amazing you really are changing something. I remember um one of our clients who was from late um was a counsellor in in Lambeth we did a school Jubilee primary school it was one of our first bigger primary schools um in the late 90s and um he told me that he he he'd been sacked because he'd stuck out for the school and moved somewhere else and he drove his car into the car park opposite the school and looked at it and started crying and I thought you know that's architecture. My brother's a TV producer no so you can make people cry we can't but actually occasionally we have and occasionally me and so but there's there's an emotion we did a bereavement centre called the older centre in on on the road I used to live in in Liverpool where people um who've lost a child either at birth or you know go and need a a sanctuary and um it's amazing going there now it's it's like this idea of um the secret garden where everything looks into this secret garden and and people stay there for hours because they find it so peaceful. So I suppose it's something that um I really enjoy that's where schools were great because often you'd you'd see the results go up as well. So you'd see you'd made it wasn't just we weren't doing it to create a nice building actually these kids were were doing better. So I mean I I I think those it's quite hard not to enjoy that and not want not want to achieve more in that way. But on on another level as well look we enjoy the world of architect you know we enjoy you know why I I think awards and getting things published are really important because the day we stop getting that is the day our firm is starting to slip in terms of design and I'm always people here get irritated with me that you know we've got to be on top of our game because there will be a queue of people trying to get into the clients we have and we've got to always produce and do some good work. And that drive and never feeling you know the the interest to me is it's always the next building we do will be the best one we do.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's what keeps me going really Paul thank you very much for your time today it's been a real uh privilege to have you on and I really enjoy working together as we have done over the years. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Well it's lovely seeing you as well Tom thank you thank you for listening to the Grow Places podcast for more information visit growplaces.com and follow us at we grow places across all social channels. See you next time