Grow Places

GP 49: How to unlock Co-Living: Redefining Urban Living with James Armitage-Hobbs of DP9

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In this episode of the Grow Places podcast, Tom Larsson sits down with James Armitage-Hobbs, Director at DP9, to ask a big question: What role does co-living play in the future of our cities?

They explore:

  • How co-living has evolved over the past decade from a niche idea into a recognised housing model.
  • Why loneliness, affordability, and housing shortages make professionally managed shared living so relevant today.
  • The planning and policy challenges of a use class that doesn’t neatly fit existing categories.
  • Lessons from early schemes, and how case studies shaped today’s “second-generation” co-living projects.
  • The tension between creating amenities that build community within buildings and ensuring they also contribute positively to neighbourhood life.
  • The potential of repurposing outdated office stock into sustainable co-living communities.
  • How public benefit stories—affordable housing, ground floor uses, and wider economic impact—are reshaping conversations with local authorities.

As James reflects, “It was only when people could see live case studies that the model really started to gain traction.”  And as Tom observes, “Successful projects must enrich not just the building, but the neighbourhood and the city around it.”

This conversation dives deep into the opportunities and challenges of co-living, why it matters for London’s housing mix, and how it can help create more connected, resilient urban communities.

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the Grow Places podcast, where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth and place Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, tom Larson.

Speaker 2:

James, thanks very much for joining me today on the podcast. We're just having a great conversation off mic about football and it reminded me that football is such an amazing way sport generally for people to come together to share an experience, and I think some of football is such an amazing way sport generally for people to come together to share an experience, and I think some of that is really going to play into what we're talking about today with regards to planning more broadly, but also alternative living and kind of co-living collaborative models more broadly. So before we dive into it, james, why don't you give us an introduction to yourself?

Speaker 3:

thanks, tom. Firstly, thanks for having me on the podcast and listen to lots of the previous editions, and it's, uh, yeah, really great to be here today. So thank you, um, yeah, so I'm james. I'm james, I'm a director at dp9. For those that don't know, dp9, we're a planning consultancy, uh, focusing on planning in in central london. Uh, I've worked here for about what's just coming up to 10 years actually, um, worked in previous consultancies before that, uh, but always been in in central london, um, so that's a bit of bit of background to me, yeah, yeah interesting.

Speaker 2:

And so you know, over that 10 year period, you know when, when we talk about co-living and alternative living today, it does really feel like about a 10-year period that that kind of sector has emerged. But actually the origins of this go go way back. You know, we've, we've been living together as people, you know, um, well, now, ever since we've been around as a species, really, and then obviously models of cohabitation, cooperatives etc. Um in the early 21st century, 20th century, were obviously really popular as well, um, so how do you see the co-living now, maybe over that 10-year period, um, and where we are today?

Speaker 3:

yeah, that's really really interesting question. And then, as you said, it started around 10 10 years ago and I remember when first day at dp9 care living landed on my desk and first question was what on earth is this? Never heard of it? Um, and it obviously didn't fit into any, any planning policies or guidance at the time. And I think it was really interesting because um client came to us and said look, I've got this great idea.

Speaker 3:

Um, I think, kind of graduating from university, you move to london and other big cities and your first option is to look on spareroomcom when am I going to live? And you end up typically in a Victorian terrace sharing a house with three or four people that you don't know, in a pretty average accommodation. You're sharing your private spaces, kitchen and bathrooms, which isn't ideal. And equally, you've got a landlord that's probably faceless, you don't know who, they are difficult to get hold of and it's not a great place to be. And I think the other point on that is a loneliness issue as well, which I think we'll come on to later in the podcast.

Speaker 3:

But I think the idea was how do we give people a better place to live, closer to where they work and in a kind of professionally managed environment where you have your own space but you live within the building and it gives you an opportunity to meet like-minded people and you kind of have that option to yes, I can have, you know, an evening to myself in my room or I can go and mix and meet people, maybe cook a meal or watch a film. So that was kind of the, shall we say, the challenge that was posed to us right at the start of the process and we've kind of seen that grow and evolve over the last 10 years and we are where we are today with, I think, what is quite an established use. Now I think you'll still say it's emerging, but it's out there. We've got schemes that are built, they're operational and people kind of get it now, whereas they didn't when we started. So it's been a real journey, but I think it's been successful so far.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, no, definitely.

Speaker 2:

And what you've just described there, that value proposition or that sort of pain point that it's solving, all sounds very logical today.

Speaker 2:

But there's, there's been a big journey, hasn't there over the past few years to do that, and it's great to kind of unpack some of that with you, not just in terms of the kind of the product and the, the customer type and maybe the design, but also the kind of the regulatory and the context within which that this happens, because it's fair to say that, um, you know, with any kind of iteration, with any disruption or new model, that doesn't necessarily fit in category a or category b, uh, that often takes a little while to come through. And um, also, you know there's, you know the devil's in the detail with these things as well, isn't it? Whether it's process or whether it's kind of the quality of the product and the environments that people are living in? Um, so the kind of the why, I think, is quite clear, particularly for, you know, certain demographics. But how to go about doing that, um has definitely evolved yeah, sure, um, and it's.

Speaker 3:

It's quite interesting because, as I said, when we started off it was just an idea.

Speaker 3:

We were going to see planners, politicians, other stakeholders, with essentially, pictures on pages and trying to trying to kind of present and sell the idea to them. Um, but it was only really when we started to get some live case studies, you know, schemes starting to be built um and operational that it was. It's been easy to sell the idea to people and actually show how it works um, because, like with anything new, people are skeptical and and when you're talking to planners and politicians, it's the first thing it's like oh, this is a bit different, but this is a bit hard for us. Um, you know, it's not, this isn't proper housing, um, so you know, how does it actually work? And I think that's when we started to get the track, the traction, and I think with everything, people don't always get it right first time.

Speaker 3:

So the the kind of initial schemes that were built out, they had their, their shortcomings, but I think that was useful because you could then say, look, this is working really well, it's popular.

Speaker 3:

You know, this is how it's run and managed, but there are some kind of shortcomings and lessons learned. I think, yeah, um, so we can look at those and that's that's how the kind of generation two should we call it co-living schemes have evolved. Yeah, um, and and I think that's also helped to influence planning policy and guidance as well, because I think initially and particularly um gla guidance that's come out has been you know, the first pass of that was very, um, kind of granular in terms of the detail and and it wasn't until we kind of brought together a cohort of developers and architects and planners and and put together a joint representation on that, the planners actually thought actually we need to listen to these guys because they know how to do it and so. So I think it's really just a kind of a lessons learned and looking at case studies and and how the how the um, how the uses evolved over over the years has been really quite important yeah, yeah, so, so, so that evolution to to now.

Speaker 2:

So how do you see um the use class kind of fitting in like web, I mean from a kind of strategic planning perspective, locations that are best suitable demographics that it most suits the, the um, the space within the market that it's, it's kind of catering for I think and I mean in terms of location I mean typically central london, know accessible locations are probably the main driver Because the usual demographic or typical demographic is younger people.

Speaker 3:

Like I said, people who you know, singles who are looking for somewhere to rent that's convenient, close to work, singles who are looking for somewhere to rent that's convenient, close to work, um, and I think this whole you know, the certainty over your, your monthly bills as well, which is really really important. But I think every site's different, um, and every scheme's different. And I think if you, if you did some, you know some work on looking at the demographic in each building, it'll be, it'll be. It will be different depending on where you are. And I think, talking to some of our clients, it's not just younger people. They're seeing, you know, retirees moving in because it's a point in their point in their life, I think, you know, and and older people who maybe are lonely, living on their own, or they've been divorced and they want to be part of a community again. So I think it does. It does vary, but I think if you look at it typically, it will be a younger demographic in these buildings.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that makes sense. And so what are some of those barriers that you kind of come up against, then, whether it's perception or actually kind of real barriers, like, um, or concerns that that people would have when you're trying to sort of unlock these development sites?

Speaker 3:

yeah. So, as I said, I think every site's different, but, um, when you are talking to talking to the planners and the politicians early in the process, I think there's. I think design quality is a big point. I think, on the face of it, they look at small rooms and think, well, you know, is that an acceptable living environment for people? So it's getting over that idea of you don't just live within the room, you live within the building, you have your private space, which is adequate. You know you've got your sleeping space, you have your small kitchenette, you've got your en suite. But the idea is you generally only really use that, that space for for sleeping. Um, you go and use the gym, you know you you might want to cook a meal with some friends in the shared kitchens and you live within that buildings.

Speaker 3:

And then, equally, it's getting a getting across the point that these are professionally managed as well, um, by people who know what they're doing. Um, so it's it's, it's really just getting across that, that quality point. And it's not just as some people say, oh, it's it's, it's really just getting across that, that quality point. And it's not just as some people say, oh, it's just kind of a student accommodation for for graduates, essentially. So there's going to be all the associated impacts on people's amenities. So I think that's one of the key things, um, and also just how it how it's going to help in terms of housing delivery as well. So it's obviously a use that's recognized in the london plan that contributes to the housing numbers. So that's that's important. It's getting that message across, um.

Speaker 2:

You just you just go into that for a bit more detail, actually for my benefit and for others as well just where the the use class thing has sort of settled down now, because for a long time it was flexible, wasn't it? Some people were looking at kind of a sui generis land use. Some people were looking at hotel and varieties in between. But yeah, could you talk about how it's kind of landed in that?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, the shared living, co-living use is sui generis and that, in kind of boring planning speak, is because it's a non-self-contained residential use. Contained residential use, um, and that's on the basis that you don't have everything in your private room that that you would, you would need for your kind of typical living requirements. So, for example, you don't have a washing machine, you've got to leave your room to go and do your washing. So that means the whole building becomes a planning use and that's why it's classified as as, uh, sui generis, um, and that's now recognized in the london plan and that's that's the approach that's taken um across.

Speaker 2:

You know, traditional co-living or shared living developments yeah and um, you know, I know one of the concerns, um, for local authorities was around, uh, the broader kind of public benefit story that was kind of coming from some of these developments. So how, how do you and your clients and partners articulate that public benefits story now, um, both what goes on within the building and also what contributes externally to the, to the neighborhood?

Speaker 3:

yeah. So again, it kind of depends on what the what the overall scheme is, but I guess the key, the key benefits is, is the delivery of housing contributes to the borough's housing targets and I think in the current day, where there's very few traditional C3 schemes coming forward because of all the issues around build costs and everything else, I think that's something that's really important. I think the affordable housing can play a key part. I mean I could probably speak for an hour about how affordable housing can play a key part. Um, I mean I could probably speak for an hour about how affordable housing is delivered, but what?

Speaker 3:

What we're seeing is there's different ways of doing it. I guess the the general approach is a payment, uh, which doesn't always land well with with boroughs because they're saying well, we, you know, what can we do with the cash. So what we've seen in more recent years is, on larger sites, there is the possibility of delivering traditional affordable housing alongside the co-living, and that lands very well, particularly because there's a lot of stalled sites in london at the moment where you've got a c3 scheme of 35 affordable housing but bill costs have gone up and all the rest of it are no longer viable. So we've had quite a few clients come to us and say, well, we can still deliver the scheme, but the market portion will need to be co-living and we'll still give the borough the the affordable housing uh that they, that they would have got and that's, that's landed well and it's really a key part of kind of unlocking these sites and kind of maintaining that that delivery of homes, um, so that's that's important, um, and then the other, I guess I guess the other way of delivering affordable housing is more of a kind of a discounted market rent.

Speaker 3:

Now that's not recognised in policy but we did some schemes a few years ago in Wandsworth where the council they didn't want the money but they said, well, if you can deliver kind of discounted rents on a portion of the co-living, that would meet our housing requirements and people on our housing list. So that landed really well, um, but unfortunately we're kind of hamstrung by the london plan now which says it's got to be a payment or you can do your c3 affordable, so that that option's a bit more difficult to to navigate through the system. But we've always thought is, you know, that could be a really key benefit, especially when you're looking at the key workers, um, because it meets their kind of um, their salary threshold. So, um, we don't want to ignore that. We do keep reminding the planners about that, that approach, so hopefully you can get some traction again yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, and um.

Speaker 2:

You know, I think as a, as an industry, frankly, as a kind of society, we do need to be much more innovative around ways that we can tackle the cost of living crisis and affordability issues, and supply is obviously a key part of that. As you mentioned, we need to be able to deliver um. The planning permissions that are in place and, as I say, economic shifts have meant that that's not really viable in a lot of cases without um, as you say, adjusting to the building safety act and and um, and also the broader development viability issues, um, so so, yeah, as part of a mix, I think it it makes a lot of sense, um to include that and um. So how do you, how do you see that kind of affordability piece more broadly in terms of um? Yeah, how we continue to um create spaces or products more broadly that are um affordable, because the kind of the underlying commercial rationale to co-living is you effectively, you get more units in that they're a smaller size. Obviously, an overall um rentable value for the building is therefore greater than if you had one, two and three bed units, and and that offsets the the loss of net space that you get from the communal spaces that kind of factor, that in so on a comparable pram square foot basis it's.

Speaker 2:

It's more commercially attractive than, say, a c3 use, even when you factor in the, the affordable, although I think from ones we've looked at, when you factor in the affordable in certain boroughs that margin is of it improving on c3 is dramatically reduced um, but yeah. So how do you see? Maybe because there's there's lots of other challenges, aren't there's? There's family housing, there's um later living, there's there's um student, there's all of other challenges, aren't there? There's family housing, there's later living, there's student, there's all sorts of different categories within the living sector or the alternative living sector. So maybe what lessons do you think maybe come out of co-living that you could maybe apply to some of those other uses, particularly around tackling kind of delivery, supply and affordability.

Speaker 3:

I think it probably stands on its own. Um, I'm not sure how much real comparison you can make with things like elderly, um care and and maybe student. There is there is some comparisons, but, um, yeah, I think I think in terms of kind of meeting housing, need delivering and affordable housing, um, and I think the other, the other spin-off benefits of schemes as well, um, which is really important is we always try and look at them as mixed use developments. It's not just about the, the co-living, it's, it's what, what are you doing at ground level? Um, and a lot of the, a lot of the schemes will do like a co-working offer or a community offer as kind of a, a real draw to the scheme.

Speaker 3:

So it's not just about oh, this is just a co-living scheme, it's going to be just for residents, it's what can we do to kind of um, integrate it with the community? And I know we've done schemes in the past where there's been a, you know, a music venue at ground floor or a community space and it's it really helps sell it, particularly when you're going out speaking to local residents and the community, um, it's saying look, we can, you know, we can offer this, we want you to come into the building, um, and it's, it's all about community, not just within the building, but as a, you know, as a bigger, bigger picture piece. Yeah, um, so I think that's something that's, you know, really quite, quite important uh, yeah, and I fully agree.

Speaker 2:

And um, you know, although in our industry we like to put buildings or or sort of business models into sectors, whether it's living or work or leisure, the reality is, you know, neighborhoods and the way we live these days is so much more blended than that and actually, uh yeah, the, the leisure, the community, the work offer that comes with with these living offers is is fundamental really to underpin the value of the building and and that offer to to customers. And I think actually, if it's done right, um, you know, we had on a previous episode of the podcast we talked to tom and james from noiscape, who are in the co-living space but in the much smaller kind of boutique space at the moment, and that whole conversation evolved around well, how can we can provide, you know, the amenity that we want for the residents within the building, but we also want to be open and we want to provide facilities for the neighborhood and for the community more broadly to come and use, and I think successful buildings and projects um have to do both. You know, you look back at the kind of classic office buildings of the 80s and 90s which were basically quite closed and um were very closed and secure and basically sticking two fingers up to the neighborhood in a lot of respects. Yeah, um, nowadays the the trend, even within workspaces, to try and be more open and try and engage more with the neighborhood. So I think, broadly speaking, that's a much um, much more interesting trend and um not only for the buildings but also for the local communities and um. So I think it's great that some of these offers I know, as you say, some of um the operators are really quite um forward thinking about this, about um, how you kind of co-design and co-create some of these spaces, and I think that's only enriching to the, to the value really of the place and the product.

Speaker 2:

So, you know, that's that's great to hear. Um what, what would you say about? There's one kind of counter that we have at Grow Places to overly amenitized buildings, whether it's offices or living or anything. Is this they can have the opposite effect sometimes of kind of sucking the life out of the neighborhood or out of the high street and kind of bringing that all into the building, and although that can maybe have some commercial benefits for the, the building owner, it can be detrimental to the, to the neighborhood more broadly. Um, so how do you, how do you find that sort of balance um within the, the products?

Speaker 3:

that it's not always about the sort of the shiny penny syndrome of kind of how many amenities can you cram into the development yeah, no, that's a really good point and it's something that we always um when we're looking at or when we're advising the client on how much amenity space is required and what those amenity space spaces look like. It's quite easy to just look at the guidance and it says you know, you've got to do four square meters of this and one square meter of external space per resident. But I think it's very much a site-by-site approach and you need to look at what's going on in the surrounding area to kind of guide what you're going to deliver. So it's kind of common sense. If there's a gym on the doorstep, you know, do you really need to put a gym in this scheme? Because a lot of the developments we're looking at, and particularly a couple of schemes we're doing in the city at the moment, they're in areas where there's not a huge amount of amenity existing or it's failing, and that's why there's been a real drive about activating the ground floor and trying to provide an amenity for people to bring them to the area.

Speaker 3:

And when you look at something like the city, it's busy Monday to Thursday. Friday to Sunday it's dead. And the city have got this initiative about Destination City. How can we enliven the place, bring people there, encourage people to live and work in areas quite close to where they actually know, where they actually work. So, um, yeah, I think it's a really good point and I think what we try and um get across to the planners when we're talking to them is you know, don't, don't use this, this guidance, um too strictly. I think it's got to be flexible, um, and it's got to be, it's got to be used in a way that, um, it's gonna, it's gonna help the place.

Speaker 2:

I think that's, that's the key thing yeah, yeah, definitely um, and so so you mentioned, you touched on, kind of loneliness and some of those kind of, um, really basic human needs that, um, I talked about. You know mazo's hierarchy of needs is often referred to a lot in, you know, the co-living space and and those kind of foundational needs, as well as some more kind of um, uh, aspirational aspects about what we want to do as humans and purpose and meaning, um. So how do you see that kind of broader sensibility around value, uh, human value, human connection, um, and, and what that actually means in terms of the, the, the product and the sale to local authorities and the, the overall kind of value proposition that that co-living and other alternative living models kind of produce?

Speaker 3:

um, yeah, I think it's. I mean, I think it's it's got to be focused on kind of the objectives for for the local authority, um, and it's really creating a site-specific case that's going to address that local authority's requirement. So, you know, housing needs the obvious one, um, but I also think that you can look at not just kind of direct benefits but it's more, more indirect benefits as well, um, and so just referring to the couple of projects I've done in the city recently, it's not just a bit, it's not just about delivering new homes, it's being about that, um, kind of helping business in the city. So I think it's those indirect economic benefits of allowing, probably in the city's case, younger people, graduates, to be able to live close to some of the big corporate businesses in the city, whereas at the moment they're obviously priced out. You know, to rent a one-bed flat in the city you know be extremely expensive. So the opportunity to to allow people to to rent a, rent a room for, you know, for 10, 12 months and and probably also benefit things like interns as well and a lot.

Speaker 3:

You know the city had been really quite strong on that point, um, and I think all the you know the big businesses will be, you know, really welcoming of of people being able to to live close to, to where they are, and it's a good source of of um, uh, you know, of jobs as well. So I think that's another thing that needs to be really, really driven across. But that won't work for every borough, you know there'll be other other benefits that that, um, that we'll need to draw down on yeah, yeah, no, I agree, I think it is a.

Speaker 2:

It works. Probably in my view, I think it works best as a super urban core product for those reasons you've just mentioned and also because you know just the economics of it. You know the land values. The property values are such that typically the closer to the center you are, the you know, the more valuable that is. So if you're going to provide spaces that are affordable for people to live, then yeah, it's got to be under similar types of models where, frankly, the commercials of of that model are stronger than traditional residential um, so that people can afford to occupy but also the developer and the investor can afford to to be competitive on a kind of a change of use basis from, say, an office to to housing or or, um, yeah, just purely on a development viability. You know cost versus value of building or refurbishing and change of use of these products.

Speaker 2:

So so, yeah, I think it's got a really, really important place to play, particularly in in those kind of core urban areas and, more broadly, you know that has a lot of downstream benefits to to urban neighborhoods more broadly. You know the city, as you mentioned, you know trying to still be a business first place but be a much more of a mixed use place as well. That's got people living there, that's culturally relevant and that that helps um support the local businesses. The high street, the footfall, seven days a week, you know um as opposed to a kind of peak sort of tuesday to thursday sort of commuter workflow um, yeah, and I think I think the the point around change of use is really important as well.

Speaker 3:

Um, because obviously post-covid there's there's so many dated buildings now that you know aren't viable for continued office use, um, and what co living it's a very agile use.

Speaker 3:

You know you can do new continued office use, um, and what co-living it's a very agile use.

Speaker 3:

You know you can do new build or you can do conversion schemes, and a couple of schemes we've done recently is, you know, dated office stock, um, you know it's not viable to. You know people don't want to work in these buildings because you know they're poor quality, they don't have all the amenities that people are looking for now. And we've done two really successful schemes where it's essentially a change of use and the, the layout of the existing offices just lends it's what lends itself well to the kind of repetitive pattern of the of the co-living layouts. Um, and you know it's been really successful because not only is it retaining the existing building, it's helping with the whole carbon, carbon agenda at the moment in in london and obviously the city, you know that's really high up on their agenda. So they've been, yeah, been really successful and I think that's a really good way of delivering, delivering homes as well, this reuse of of dated office stock, which are generally in really good locations as well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, really accessible locations and close to other, you know, core business areas where people, people work yeah, no, james, it's great to have that really deep dive into that specific use um, which, as I say, I think is is really, really exciting. Um has a really important part to play in in urban living, particularly going forwards, and it's not the whole solution, like none of these things are, but it's definitely part of a of a more dynamic housing mix and and lifestyle mix. I think is is great, but but maybe like zooming out a little bit from from that. Then for you, for you personally, you know you say you've kind of maybe um, coincidentally kind of ended up in co-living sort of 10 years ago, but you've obviously enjoyed it enough to sort of dedicate your kind of most of your work time to those kind of types of projects. And for you personally, why do you feel like this work is meaningful for you and why do you enjoy doing what you do?

Speaker 3:

yeah, no, it's, it's a good point and, um, you know, the markets have always changing, so there's different sectors to work in, but obviously this is quite a key one at the moment and it's something I've feels like I've been on on a journey which has been really really challenging, but also exciting at times as well, and it's what's really great is now seeing schemes being delivered, because there's nothing better as a planner, you know you're there from the very start when someone comes to you with an idea and you're giving them, you know, initial advice on development potential all the way through to now. Seeing people living in these buildings is really really important and, um, yeah, it's really really quite um, satisfying. Um, but I think it just goes back to probably the points I was making at the start, where I remember I moved to london and I didn't, you know I had to go and try and find somewhere to live and you know you're looking on gumtree and spareroomcom and you end up in a house with a bunch of random people and it's not it's not great.

Speaker 3:

It's not a great start, um, and I think this really. You know I'm probably too old for it now, but I've got me two kids and stuff. But you know, if I'd be moving to london, you know now I think it's really really obvious place to to go and live, um. So I think I really see that as a is a real benefit and creating community and solving things around loneliness, I think it's really really important. So that's kind of my personal feeling towards towards the use um.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, and more broadly to what you do, you know the role of being a planning consultant. You know working in cities, uh, seeing things happen.

Speaker 3:

You know where do you have a feel for, where that kind of comes from in you or like your background, or why, why you've ended up doing what you're doing yeah, I think a lot of people ask that because I remember when I was at university, because I did a planning degree, and people are thinking why on earth have you chosen to do that? Yeah, why aren't you doing you know something? Something a bit bit more kind of run of the mill and and I said, well, I think there were two things I quite liked geography and I liked architecture, but I didn't want to be an architect. So it's kind of looking at those, those interests and and and kind of attributes, and just thinking, well, also looking beyond being being at university, what am I going to do when I finish? And kind of looking at jobs.

Speaker 3:

And I saw this sector and thought, you know, that kind of brings everything together that I like doing and interests, and the opportunity to then work in central London on, you know, the biggest prestigious projects has been a real drive and you know it's an ever-challenging sector to work in. But you know I an it's an ever challenging sector to work in, um, but you know I think it's really important and I think building relationships is a real key part of the success of the job, um, whether that's with colleagues, clients, uh, planners, you know, politicians, stakeholders, um, and being able to communicate effectively as well is really important, whether that's writing a report, an, an email, you know, sitting in a meeting with people to negotiate and sell an idea is, um, uh, something I really enjoy doing, so yeah, no great.

Speaker 2:

And um, yeah, no, I think everything you've just described there is is the core of it, really, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

It's think a lot of people who work in our industry enjoy, uh, you know, the people side, the humanities side, more broadly, and, um, that's definitely the case for me as well.

Speaker 2:

So, um, it does boil down, as you say, to those relationships, to building that consensus and um negotiation a lot of times to try and um, explain kind of or agree on some of, yeah, some of that common ground. That is is about kind of policy and and what do places need in in what could be kind of like a static sense in terms of the policy that was drawn up in this year versus you know some of those big trends about where things are going and the shifts um, both positive shifts around you know bringing people together, how people want to live, but also some of those slightly more difficult topics around, um, you know affordability, how do we tackle cost of living, and some of those things, and I think, as a as a part of a solution to that, I think it's been a really interesting discussion to to dive into that. So, yeah, thanks very much for your time today, james and um, yeah, I look forward to continuing to work together and watching more and more of these schemes come through and be built out.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, brilliant. Yeah, thanks for having me.

Speaker 2:

No worries, thanks, james.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening to the Grow Places podcast. For more information, visit growplacescom and follow us at. We Grow Places across all social channels. See you next time.