Grow Places

GP 47: The Barbican: The Future of Culture and Place with Pip Simpson

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In this episode of the Grow Places Podcast, Tom Larsson sits down with Pip Simpson, Director of Buildings and Renewal, at the Barbican. They explore the evolving role of cultural institutions in shaping cities, fostering creativity, and building community. Pip shares insights from her experience at major UK institutions, discusses the Barbican’s unique mixed-use design, and reveals plans for its ambitious revitalization. From architecture and accessibility to programming and public engagement, this conversation uncovers how spaces like the Barbican can inspire, connect, and adapt for the future.

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the Grow Places podcast, where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth and place Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, Tom Larson.

Speaker 2:

Pip, thank you very much for joining me today on the Grow Places podcast. How are you doing? I'm doing very well, thank you, good, good, and I know you're very busy at the moment with everything going on here at the Barbican, but it's fascinating to have this conversation with you. So thanks for your time.

Speaker 3:

Oh, thank you. No, it is wild at the moment, but all good things, Good good.

Speaker 2:

And so, before we get into all of that, why don't you just a little introduction to yourself, please?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, sure, okay. So I'm Pip Simpson, I'm Director for Build, estate and public program, which is kind of a similarish role, looking at capital development of a cultural building and the kind of active activities that take place within it. Before that, war Museums, greenwich and Tate. So I have a big old, sort of big beast cultural organization background, I guess.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, amazing. Um. So, yeah, as everyone will know that the names that you've mentioned there, that some of the leading cultural institutions um in the uk, and so it's going to be amazing to get your take on on culture, those institutions, how they develop and what they do for people and for cities. So, um, brilliant yeah yeah, maybe. Um what, what do you think to to that? Do you have a?

Speaker 3:

do you?

Speaker 2:

have a have a feel before we dive into the Barbican. It's one of the most enormous questions.

Speaker 3:

Yeah so what they do for the city, I mean, yes, I mean where to start, I think? I think actually the big nationals, the kind of Tate's and the V&A's and you know, natural History Museum, all those sort of big, those really sort of enormous institutions, sort of enormous institutions. It's interesting because they operate on a very local and a national and an international basis. So the ripple effect of everything they do is so enormous and it's not just about sort of how they impact people living within the city, which they do, but actually they sort of tone set for other cultural organisations. So they become the kind of field leaders, which is interesting and they play quite an important political role as well. Actually, I mean, you know, particularly in work internationally, they tour a lot of exhibitions and you know this kind of they're often a route for soft power and relationships between different countries.

Speaker 3:

So I mean, south Kensington was an interesting place to be because it was really conceived as a hub of knowledge. I suppose arts and science coming together somewhere, that kind of draws people in as kind of gravitational pull. There's some brilliant statistic about. I think there's as many visitors there per year as to Venice or something. It's really sort of significant for London and yet strangely slightly out of the centre. That's the other thing about Londonon. Where is that center, I suppose? But in any case it's, you know, it kind of creates its own, its own hub, um, and so I suppose it's, I guess it's something about, you know, that sort of it draws people in from outside, but actually when, when you talk to anyone who lives in london, they do see it as their own personal resource in a funny way, and it's also about so I could do this for hours it's also about talent and skill generation, of course, because it's also the place where and I, and I'm happy to say it transparently, you know the arts are now not taught in schools as much as once they were and the opportunities aren't really there to engage with creative subjects in the way that actually even when I was at school was possible.

Speaker 3:

And so actually often these places are supplementing that and becoming a first point of contact or exposure for younger generations and are really feeding that pipeline of of talent, which is not just about people going into work in the creative industries, but actually skills that are needed across every kind of work and discipline. You know, even financing every, you know everything now demands creative lateral thought, and actually where is that? Where is that really being nurtured? So you know, I will stop there, because I could do this for days, but that's, I suppose, where I kind of see them having real impact yeah, no, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

and and well, cities more broadly are kind of engines of kind of humanity, creativity, growth and um, and a cultural institution within that are so important, aren't they, those anchor institutions, not just for the place, for its status, but also for that kind of, for that local sense of kind of wealth and amenity as well? And so how have you seen, obviously being on the inside of various organizations over your career maybe, how those organizations kind of take that role? How do they see themselves like, obviously inwardly but also maybe outwardly, within their neighborhoods in the city?

Speaker 3:

yeah. So that's a really interesting point and I think, because I think it's shifted in any case over the course of my career, which I suppose is like loosely 20 years now a bit more, which is terrifying, but I think, um, when I first started working in the big nationals it was, it was very much an international outlook and it was a very particular moment in the early 2000s and it was a kind of you know, just about still on the new labor wave and everyone feeling very, very confident about, you know, cool Britannia and all the rest of it. So so their role then felt like it was, you know it was, there was a real confidence actually, um, and I think what's come through more powerfully over the last, I would say, sort of 10 to 15 years is actually more to your point around maybe, uh, community building and engaging with audiences and understanding actually you know, where you really can have a more direct, perhaps almost personal impact, influence. And I think one of the things that's come out and again kind of even more recently, that I've seen and actually some of this came out through some of the work that I did with Young, v&a and Bethnal Green which is understanding these buildings as places of social encounter, if you like.

Speaker 3:

So we're in this kind of increasingly fractured society, and I think we all get that, but actually these sorts of organisations are places where they belong to everyone. We live in this incredibly lucky place where actually the majority are free to wander into and actually, you know, it is one of the few places where you will meet people that you might not otherwise come across, and different programming can allow that to happen in different ways. But actually and I'm sure we'll talk about this later as well the kinds of spaces that you provide can help that and support that to happen in a really quite sort of nuanced and organic way, and so this idea of it being, as you say, it's kind of a glue that holds cities together is actually more and more pronounced, I think yeah, because because, as you're touching on there, some of that is physical.

Speaker 2:

Isn't it about the how are the places designed, how active the street franchises are and how welcoming it feels?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, and a lot of that is actually not to do with the physical, it's more programming, it's attitude, it's kind of how open um are programs of events or or how accessible are they and um.

Speaker 2:

So maybe now, specifically with regards to the barbican, then, because you know it is one of my favorite places you know to go, I I love going out sitting to have my lunch by the lake and look at the fish and it's, it's incredible and it is this little oasis in the center of the city and that's all the kind of positive side of the public realm and the other things.

Speaker 2:

But it also does suffer a little bit from that kind of post-war idea of this kind of sort of utopian dream within the city that is quite closed in a lot of respects to the kind of sort of um utopian dream within the city that is quite closed in a lot of respects to the kind of surrounding streets and a network and the level changes and everything. So that's my kind of sort of um, you know, maybe critique and also celebration of the Barbican um as a kind of citizen, as opposed to someone who lives here or kind of works here. But I don't know what your take on on it as a place, maybe having, as you say, being a Londoner and now working here yeah, I mean, oh gosh, yeah, it's one of my favorite subjects to talk about.

Speaker 3:

I mean I, it's the best place on earth, obviously, um, and I came here because it's the place that I love most in London and it hasn't disappointed, I'll be honest. Like you still get a kick every day, I tell you, even a year in. So it is amazing, I mean. I think I mean maybe just step back then to your kind of initial point about you know its genesis and what that means in terms of how it works for people and then that sort of inheritance and how and how we're trying to kind of work within that. I think you're right. I mean that sort of that post-war utopian ideal and ambition is really it can be both incredibly energizing and inspiring, but it's also quite it can feel a bit alienating at times. I guess I think one thing I would say is that spirit of boldness and hope and optimism is something that we really hold dear and that's something which we've read through all of the work that we do here, and I think that's about the building and the program and actually just the spirit of place, and I have a very firm, slightly kind of maybe superstitious belief in the way in which a building is made is often the way in which it's experienced and lived in for the rest of its life. Actually, that's kind of set quite fundamentally and you do feel that here, and I do think there is that kind of you know, no-transcript face to you at all.

Speaker 3:

And the question of thresholds and how thresholds work and how you kind of help to make them more porous is probably one of the biggest challenges we have. I mean, it's like a cliche to say that everyone gets lost at the babkin. Everyone knows that you haven't been to the babkin unless you've been lost. So it's, you know it does. There is a beauty in that as well. There is this idea of like the unexpected encounter.

Speaker 3:

But actually if you're someone who feels that arts and culture isn't for them or, um, has any kind of spatial anxiety or indeed any um, any barriers to access of any sort physical or neurological or anything it is incredibly challenging.

Speaker 3:

So I guess my feeling on it is how do you hold in the one hand that same spirit of place and I don't want to over open it it feels magic to be within and yet make people feel very comfortable to kind of cross, cross over and to and to explore. So a lot of the work that we're doing is about, you know, um well, wayfinding talk about that separately, perhaps, because it's huge um but also about when you do get to the space and this is the bit that really fascinates me making it feel permissive enough that people still will come and do what you do, which is sit and have lunch, or come and work on the laptop, or come and do their dance class or their crafting, which they do now very comfortably, but then sort of take it back to that sort of what one of our heritage architects calls glamour for the people. It's become very run down and actually somehow striking. That balance between beauty and comfort or welcome is really significant, I think.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, no, no, absolutely, and because you you touched on there and maybe we should just for for people who don't really know the barbican as well as we do, just touch on it. But but it is, it's very mixed use, you know, as we would talk about in our industry. It's, um, it's not just one thing, it's it's, it's it's housing and schools, it's culture. So so maybe just for the listeners, sort of kind of elaborate on that a little bit and then and then, um, maybe also just quite interestingly, how, how close to the original vision do you feel like we are today in that context and maybe with regards to your plans moving forwards?

Speaker 3:

that's such an. That's a really interesting question. Um, so, yeah, okay, so a little bit about the kind of um, the madness of the mixed use complex, so, um, so Barbican started as a residential um plan, effectively. So, on a um, a bomb site from second world war, uh, and it's interesting to note, actually, originally I think there was something in the region of 45 households on this site. There are now something in the region of 2500, so 4000 residents total across the estate, which accounts for eight, accounts for half of the 8 000 that live in the square mile. So it's, it's. You know, we are not a very residential area in general, but, um, most of them are at the Barbican um, and then within that, and it's.

Speaker 3:

This fascinates me, I think, this recognition that at the heart of a new, a new community, you put culture and you put social, civic spaces. You know, and I should be absolutely clear, the residential was not conceived as um social housing. It was always aspirational, it was always for the professionals working in the city, and I think there's sometimes a kind of um slight misunderstanding around that. You know, it was something that people want, they wanted people to aim for. So, so say, very bold, very confident in its outlook and very kind of, you know, one vision and you really feel that and you will have felt that across the across the side. So it has that.

Speaker 3:

And then at the heart of it is, well, we've got Guildhall School of Music and Drama, I should say, who are brilliant neighbours, so you've got that kind of arts education piece sitting within, and then the Barbican Arts Centre, which is kind of carved out of what's left after the resi was finished.

Speaker 3:

So we're stacked up on kind of six or seven levels, interconnected in lots of complicated ways. Currently everything leaks into everything and it's all concrete, so everything reverberates around everywhere and carved around the tube lines, and I mean it is, as a piece of engineering, exquisite and incredible. And then, in terms of its use, what have we got? We've got huge amounts of open civic space in our foyers, in our lakeside, we've got a whole stack of restaurants and cafes, but, more excitingly, we have two theatres, an enormous concert hall, three cinemas, two art galleries, a lot of programming in all of our spaces of all the different art forms and the world's best conservatory. So it's a pretty complicated building to look after, yeah, and to develop. So your second question was how close are we now to that vision?

Speaker 1:

yeah, yeah, yeah where do you go next?

Speaker 3:

where do you go next? Uh, yeah, no, it's kind of, I suppose, exactly the question that we've been trying to answer the last kind of couple of years. Um, I think we had probably lost that vision a bit. Um, and I think there is also, um, you know, it's a really unusual context to operate in. It's how much are we here for the, for our local neighbors and residents and community, which, of course, you know we are at the heart of and they are, you know, some of our greatest supporters and advocates, but also, how much are we here for london and and internationally? And to my mind, that's sort of where the interest lies. It's like, actually, how can we open up to become more of a london hub and and center? Um, how do we work more cleverly across? I mean, we work with 80 countries every year, our program is hugely international, but we actually don't welcome as many international visitors as many of the big players that I've worked with before. How do we develop that so that we become somewhere that is really about discourse and dialogue?

Speaker 3:

I think one of the things that I think we do still have from the start is this kind of how to describe it the Barbican always felt both in its architecture and its programme, like a bit of an agitator and a bit of a provocateur. It was always very, very progressive in its thinking, forward-looking. I don't think we've lost that. I think there is that kind of spirit of you know, we can kind of be rooted in the most historic part of the city and still look forward. There is a lovely, lovely thing that happens during the day here where you know you encounter an audience for the London Symphony Orchestra, our resident orchestra, uh, and then turn, you know, two seconds away, and you know people coming in, see, I don't know, jockstruck or whatever, um, the theatre program is so, I mean, everything is so varied. You know, we literally, we literally cover everything, and so the feel of the place changes minute by minute because the audience is changing.

Speaker 3:

And I think that was always the guy you know, I think that has. That, for me, is what the future should look like. I want it to be. That it's that kind of vitality, of that constant shift. It's like watching light changing during the day. You know, really, the mood is different all the time. That was a bit of a big esoteric, kind of conceptual answer, wasn't it, to the future of the Barbican, but that's sort of sent in terms of my sensibility for it. That's where I'd like it to be yeah, yeah, well, it isn't.

Speaker 2:

It isn't. I think that you know that, that you know clear vision is the most important thing, I think, in any project and, as you say, this probably is one of the, you know, the clearest visions for a place. I think that there's been and, and the fact that it was ever delivered, I appreciate, as you say, the uh, the network of sort of flying walkways and everything.

Speaker 2:

Only went so far, but but even what's been built is is remarkable really, that it's just thing of scale yeah, and um, and, and, as you say, I do, I do really feel like it embodies that um, that that essence and that spirit and um and so. So how do you see that then? Maybe, um, you know, moving forward the work that you're you're doing here, and, and, and how do you actually go about a big capital project that is for a kind of national treasure, like this?

Speaker 3:

it's a really. I think you're right, that sort of of consistency across the whole is really actually quite a hard thing to hold, and in all the buildings that I've worked in before, they've already been through many, many rounds of adaptation and change because of you know, just different demand of audiences or different technology or whatever it is. So Victorian buildings are kind of, and also because they're often built cumulatively anyway, do you know what I mean? It's sort of piecemeal, and so they have that kind of ability to slightly kind of flex and change and absorb. You really don't get that here, I'll be honest. It is, it is very unilateral, and I think what's been interesting is, firstly, how do you deal with the building that really just does tell you that this is what it is, and even when you put bits in, it's really obvious that they weren't there in the first place. And so there's a bit of stripping back to this skeleton of it and really understanding it, just as this, you know, beautiful, wonderful, singular thing. But there's also this duty of care, I suppose, which is around we're at this absolutely pivotal moment of it's finally being understood as an icon and really I would say, probably now universally accepted as such, and it's been obviously quite has been controversial and not always loved, but I think that's landed. But you're you're picking up right at that point and trying to adapt it for future use and make sure that you know it actually has meaning and relevance for future generations and doesn't become a fossil and remains vital. So we're walking this tightrope in a way that I've never really experienced before, where it's like you somehow have to kind of celebrate it and be pushing it at the same time. So it's a really, really delicate, it's like kind of scalpel-like interventions, which has been really interesting for me and a huge professional development, I would say.

Speaker 3:

So there's a bit of that, I think, having really clear. So our vision, I feel our vision for it is very clear and it is very, very much audience-led. So what do our audiences need and how can we surprise them when that's right kind of thing and drive that change ourselves? And so we've done a huge amount of co-design, we've worked with 16 to 30-year-olds, we've asked a huge amount of public consultation actually around the whole project. So it's been led by that.

Speaker 3:

But our real sort of foundation I is in our is in our values, which are about inclusivity and sustainability.

Speaker 3:

Um, and you know that that commitment to making sure that we have real social value and we encourage people to kind of come with empathetic minds and encounter something unexpected, so it's they've been the drivers and so the really big physical changes have all been sort of around that. So how do do we enable access for all, and not just kind of access but actually brilliant access for all, and how do we make sure that we are operating in a way that is responsible, that's green and that is also agile, so that we can flex with different needs and flex to different kind of uses, kind of um uses? So it's a lot of that is just infrastructure. A lot of that is actually the hidden stuff, which is great, but some of it does take a bit of. You know it's not it wasn't um a sympathetic building. That's not how it was, that's not how it's conceived. So you have to kind of almost inject that back. But that can be done in interesting ways and exciting ways.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, um, and so, so you know, you've got two obviously passionate supporters of the barbecue here, as you can, as you can hear. But if you went and spoke to your I don't know your, your head curator, or your restaurateur, or one of your residents, or a teacher in the school, how do you think they would feel about the, the barbecue, as they're kind of actually living, working, operating within it, as opposed to this kind of concept or idea?

Speaker 3:

everyone loves it. I will say that, and I have never worked anywhere with as much passion or love in it as I have here, and it is extraordinarily positive and energetic as a place to be. So the first thing I'll say is that everybody who's chosen to work here has done so for the love of place, and you know that goes across everywhere. It's our engineers, it's our, you know um, arts teams, even our finance team, like everybody loves, loves it as a place. Everybody is also.

Speaker 3:

I mean it's almost a kind of um, a running joke. I mean it is an incredibly difficult building to be in. It's really cold most of the time. It's really poorly insulated, um, and it's, you know, a lot of concrete, so it doesn't really ever warm up. Things break constantly. The infrastructure's shot. It's been, I'll be honest, like not brilliantly maintained all the way through, and also it's end of life. You know it's kind of. You know it's middle-aged, let's say so. You know it needs a lot of love and care. But it's interesting that even with all of that, you can't help but see the potential of it still Like. It's still a really inspiring place to be and it's like you say it's that sort of you come in and you're held. You do kind of feel like you're stepping into a different world every day. So I think in general you'd get a positive response, but there will always be a complaint about the toilets, the toilets.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, of course, yeah, and if people stop complaining, I mean, how will they know they're here? You know, yeah, exactly, um, yeah, and so, so. So why, why do you personally, then, feel so passionate about this? What, what buttons does it press for you as a person and your passions, and and why do you feel so at home and excited by being here in this project?

Speaker 3:

I think it's. It's a range of things actually. I I mean, obviously, architecturally, I love it. I think it's because it covers everything. You can do anything here, like the opportunity is endless, because we could pretty much absorb any kind of arts programming. You know we cover all the disciplines, every kind, and that we are.

Speaker 3:

I think I've never worked anywhere where I could say so genuinely we have something for everyone. I mean, you know, really do, and it's not just our arts program, is it our commercial events as well. You know you do have the graduations and you have the kind of different corporates coming through, but actually the it's what I was saying before that life and that shift and that sort of tonality is amazing. I think the other side of it for me, which is totally unexpected and um was a sharp learning curve, is that when I joined, you know, I thought I was joining the barbican center and actually I, as we all do, we all work for the city of london corporation, which is um, our own funder and indeed supporting this big capital redevelopment as well, and at first that seemed really alien to me. I've always worked for cultural organizations and I was like I never really wanted to be part of a kind of local authority, not a standard local authority, but you know you get my point and actually what's beautiful about that and what I have found, particularly in the last kind of six months, is the opportunity it affords to understand your work in a bigger context.

Speaker 3:

So actually you know what we do contribute not only to the Square Mile but London more broadly, and actually working for a corporation that's both quite archaic and ritualistic I mean it is, you know, over a thousand years old but also quite progressive in its thinking and that span across.

Speaker 3:

You know I might be here but I might be talking to colleagues at Tower Bridge or I might be talking to colleagues at Smithfield Market or the New London Museum or you know St Paul's what a variety of I mean you can think of a greater variety in one square mile. You know just the richness of that is is mind-blowing. So I now have, you know, 4,000 colleagues all from different areas of expertise and disciplines and you know the latitude that gives you to really genuinely sort of shift. The landscape is totally thrilling and it did take me a while to recognize it, I will be honest, because it, when you first join, you're kind of like you know that's huge and it's not always the most kind of easy place to navigate, but once you know how and once you've really met the people, absolutely extraordinary. So yeah, all exciting really.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I'm definitely getting the feeling from you, pip, that you really enjoy that kind of that sense of actually doing things that have an impact and that you're a kind of progress. You know you're kind of pushing forwards, whether that's cultural change or whether that's the projects from a kind of technical perspective. And these types of capital projects, as I well know you know working with institutions in the past they need that figurehead of a project, of an organization that kind of can pull in all the disparate strands and go and speak to everyone that they need to speak to and then actually kind of grab it by the horn, so to speak, and and really drive it forwards and that feels like it's kind of you're.

Speaker 3:

You're sort of relishing that challenge as well oh, I love that side of it, I do. I mean, it's probably on this one more than anything. It's a, it's a kind of um, how do you say, a political job, not really that, but it's something about, yeah, rallying the troops, I guess as much as anything, and getting the support because it's such a you know it well, it's such a huge, it's such a huge project and sort of it covers the whole of the site and there's a lot of love out there for this place, so there's a lot of, you know, people who have an interest in what you're doing. But, yeah, I think you're right, I think sort of galvanizing and motivating I've probably spent less time looking at designs on this job than I have on any other, because it is very much more about that sort of strategic leadership across it.

Speaker 3:

But, yeah, no, I do, I really love that. I mean, it's always a people story, isn't it? You, basically and certainly that's for me you know where the interest lies and it's very relational and I'm not really I mean, I'll get my knuckles wrapped for this potentially but it's like I don't think you can actually deliver major projects or major change through rigid process. You only ever do it through people's passion and collaboration and you know so, that sort of building of um, a good dynamic among the right people and getting people to think much more broadly about what they're doing and not just stick in their own little disciplines.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's yeah, yeah, no, no, I completely agree. Yeah, no, I completely agree, and it's um, you know we're talking about cultural institutions, but but that is the culture of a project like, that's the culture of a way that things get done, and I completely agree with you. I think that's fundamental. And so then, for anyone who maybe isn't fully aware of what the plans are and maybe you don't necessarily need to go into too much detail but anything that you can say, maybe you can frame it in okay, if people were to come here in five years or something, you know what would be different, like what's this kind of body of work?

Speaker 2:

You've mentioned wayfinding and a few other things, but what's that actually kind of mean in terms of this capital project?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, no, okay, so this next five years, I should say so we have a master plan for the whole of the site and also some decommissioned space that we also have, which you know, which is a bit of a longer term plan, this first five years. The easiest way to define what we're doing is that we are touching every part of the site that sits this side of the paywall, if you like, so everywhere that you can go without getting a ticket. So all of the free public civic spaces, the foyers, the lakeside, the catering areas, the restaurants and cafes, and the conservatory, which which is, you know, the proper, you know it's one of my favorite spaces in the world, honestly. So it's, if I had to define what we're doing, it's slightly different in each of those areas, if I'm truthful, but it is both a restoration and a revitalisation project. So we're looking at making sure that the architectural heritage is celebrated. That actually it's. You know, it's become something which, as we were saying before, it sort of has resonance, I suppose, with contemporary audiences and it allows us to work way more flexibly into those spaces. So something we really struggle with at the moment is people coming in and not immediately really understanding where they are or what's going on. So being able to bring the program out into those areas, also because it allows a free first encounter for people who maybe can't afford a ticket now, but you know, it kind of generates an interest which, when they are earning or they you know, then they can come and see the kind of broader program. So, and that's in both the Foyers and the outside spaces.

Speaker 3:

And the conservatory Conservatory is an interesting one. I'm just going to give you a bit of a kind of history of it because it's um, the, the drivers there are quite unique, um, in that it is built on top of our theater and around the flight out for the theater and obviously it's a place with a lot of water involved and is leaking into all of those spaces, um, and also glass filling. I mean that that is a really big job of restoration and reimagining, I would say. So lifting the whole thing up and basically putting it back down again, which allows us to put in place access to all areas, which is great. It's not currently possible for anyone in a wheelchair or less ambulant, and at the moment it's shut 90 percent of the time because we use it for events and actually by some really sort of neat interventions and compartmentalizing within the space, we can now open it to the public seven days a week so that that point of open access and a sort of gesture of generosity, I suppose you could say, towards the city, I think really really fundamental. So so that's a lot of that fixing loads of toilets, doing lots of work to the plant room, making sure the lights come on, led lighting, all the rest of it, fixing the envelope, doing the glazing, so all the stuff you'd expect to keep a building going that otherwise, truthfully, would probably be closing in the next kind of 10, 15 years. So there's a lot of that. It's also about making people feel more comfortable in the space. So better furniture, all that kind of stuff, so a lot of kind of space. So, um, better furniture, all that kind of stuff. So a lot of kind of um, uh, just touch and feel stuff, uh, which helps um, uh, people kind of feel that it belongs to them and they're at ease.

Speaker 3:

And wayfinding, which is actually what I'm hoping will be on my headstone if we do crack this. It is honestly the most difficult job in london. But we've just appointed a team and, frustratingly, I can't tell you who they are, but just appointed a design team to work with us on an entirely new wayfinding scheme across the whole building. Many have tried before. We currently live with about four different concurrent schemes, which is not helping to clarify, and also of course we sit within broader kind of legible London schemes and TFL and all the rest of it.

Speaker 3:

But the idea for me and I've used this phrase a lot which is to kind of create an easy route from tube to toilet, because what you want to do is get everybody quickly to the places they need to get to. We have this kind of really interesting some people want to get lost and some people actually kind of loosely want to know where they're going to go, but they're fine to just sit. But you also have the people with the time ticket you need to get to the show. So you're trying to hold all those people at once and make them feel comfortable. So that's going to be rolling out over the next couple of years and to see us through the period of construction so it can be flexible and help people while we're closing different bits of the building, but then we'll take its kind of permanent form at the end of the five years. That's the plan.

Speaker 2:

Amazing.

Speaker 3:

Amazing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, no, it's exciting. Yeah, no, really good to see you can see it all moving forward. And so you touched on a bit earlier the city of London and obviously that's where you're located and the broader sort of cultural mile strategy and the city of culture kind of strategy that they're promoting. So you've got the Museum of London moving to Smithfield and the work that you're doing here. So how do you see the Barbican kind of fitting within that? You mentioned some of those kind of conversations and partnerships you have going.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean it is absolutely a kind of fabric, you know, across the whole of the city that knits together and we're on this kind of key axis, I suppose. I suppose you would call it cultural mile, but I kind of like to think of it as a cross, if you like. So it kind of runs from Smithfield down past you know, we've got the new Elizabeth line, brilliant down past Farringdon, through Beach Street, which is the kind of tunnel road that a lot of people know, that runs alongside the Barbican to us but also down, you know, to St Paul's and theoretically across the bridge to Tate Modern. I mean, there's this, you know, wealth of hidden gems and kind of creative life and and fabric nightclub. I mean there's, you know, all these different venues, um, that kind of speak to each other but at times can feel a bit fragmented, but I do think the London Museum opening, that's, you know, again, this kind of huge draw, something which people really feel is for them, and, you know, a free offer right in the right, in the heart of the square mile. So the dialogue between all of this to me is, you know, it's it should be not cannibalistic, if you like, like we're not stealing audiences from each other. It's just the more that people come in, the more it cross fertilizes and the more complimentary we become. Much greater than the sum of our parts, because that's how these places work. It's like south kent actually go back to that example or even stratford. You know the um, what was originally called olympicopolis, the east bank. You know people do it. This is the way people's minds work. You don't just go to see one thing, you go just maybe see a thing and eat a thing and meet a friend and then go on to something in the evening, and you know so I think. I think it's about sort of just understanding ourselves relationally, um, in that respect. And, yeah, destination city, which is the city's initiative to become a creative hub, and it kind of intersects with the gla's broader plans for london. And you know um as a kind of, I guess, talent engine generator, whatever you want to call it.

Speaker 3:

And one of the things that I think moving forward would be really interesting is where do you find those spaces for less formal creative activity? So we have the most wonderful theater. I mean, we literally have the most wonderful theater, I think, in the world. Great, but it's enormous. Unless you're doing a huge production you're rattling around, you know we don't have any rehearsal spaces zero.

Speaker 3:

So we're not reproducing, we can't really be a producing house and no one in the vicinity does have that function and there are no, as everybody knows, or most people know um, small or medium-sized kind of gig spaces left in london. They're all closing down, so it's those sorts of, like you know, platforms for emerging talent. The smaller places or the ones that are a bit more kind of scratch, where you can start bringing people in london museum's doing it. Interestingly, they do have some studio spaces that they're going to be sort of bringing to life, which is great, um, but it's a very particular context.

Speaker 3:

Is that? How do we? How do we allow that to kind of develop and grow so that we've got the actual feeder? Because at the moment we're just a big beast and you know we're kind of waiting for people to get to a certain level before they can come here. So, um, so I guess that's how I see it. I think if we create that, that sort of nexus, then actually that infrastructure then will start to kind of grow around as well and it just becomes.

Speaker 2:

That's when it becomes really, really exciting yeah, yeah, no, definitely, and um, and, as you say, how can you, how can you kind of unlock some of those, those sort of layers of of opportunity from, um, maybe, whether it's informal spaces, or I know you've got, you know you've got a number of those here as well, haven't you? Kind of, how do you deal with a space that's got no windows? Or how do you deal with a space that's, you know, not very well connected? You know, all those kinds of challenges that are really interesting and often the things that kind of happen when cities kind of grow and develop is people find spaces, people take them over and and and occupy and create and then, as you say, that allows that could say ecosystem, if you want it to be a bit cliche, but that kind of like development up from, from different spaces into, hopefully, one day, performing in the in the main theater. Yeah, yeah, so that kind of that is partly spatial, isn't it? It's partly programmatic as well and, as you say, some of those relationships with stakeholders, whether they're the council or whether they're local charities or local groups and schools, etc.

Speaker 2:

So do you see that as that all part of your role, that kind of broader sort of networking remit about those connections, or is that sort of covered elsewhere within the team?

Speaker 3:

I think absolutely it should be fundamental to anybody working in a leadership position in a cultural organisation. To be honest, I think it's kind of you know, it's why we do what we do and we should never just be responsible for our one place. I mean, it's always about sort of you know, I suppose, care for future generations really. But of course, my colleagues as well, the other directors at the Barbican and you know, around the city, I think everybody understands that as a fundamental, fundamental to their remit. And I think you're right, I think it's about thinking in a really innovative way, I suppose, about what partnerships we foster, and it's not just actually charities.

Speaker 3:

Also, like you know, we've got to be really smart about how we engage with commercial and corporate partners. How do we do that in a way that's true to our values but also leverages the power they have? And it's not I think people understand better now as well it's not, they're not, we are not opposites, we are not mutually exclusive. It's not creative and commercial, it's not creative and commercial. Actually, the two absolutely and always have fed each other. That's how you know, it is how society works, how it is, and we both have a lot to offer in both directions and actually how we can do that in a way that's really really genuinely valuable and positive seems very significant, I think.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

But your point around organic is interesting, you're quite right, because I think it's like you can dictate to a certain extent and kind of create the space, but you do need to let people discover it. And that kind of you know it goes in phase, obviously kind of hackney dalston moment. You know, um, which was kind of, I guess, my kind of coming of age bit, um moving down to peckham and then you know where next, kind of thing it's people slowly getting priced out of the city. So where does that go and how can you help it?

Speaker 2:

but how can you also just kind of sit back and enable it just to happen, almost you know, yeah, yeah, no, exactly, and let you know that our work at Truman Brewery that's been a lot centered around that and you know that that as a place has sort of managed to resist the waves of kind of pressure to force the creative industries out, and there's a lot of reasons for that which you know we're going to say.

Speaker 2:

But, but part of that is it being an anchor institution. Part of it is the way it's operated and the attitude towards that place, which you say the spirit, if you want to use that term used earlier and part of it is a is is a commercial thing. It's about how, how accessible you are, how, um, whether you can give people free space, whether they can be flexible, how can you adjust to their needs. So maybe on that then, in terms of whether you want to call it the business model or I don't know what you want to call it the kind of economic model for the Barbican, obviously the housing needs after itself, et cetera, but the cultural spaces within the Barbican, how do you see that? And is that kind that is?

Speaker 3:

that's kind of something that you're focused on with with the new project as well, whether it's revenue streams or access for talent or all those things we've talked about yeah, it is actually fundamental to it and, interestingly, we've been working with the city because as part of this process they've, you know, they've been really supporting us in developing our business planning and we, like every other art big arts organization in the country, are subsidized, you know, and it tends in most of these organizations to offer somewhere between 20 to 50 percent is um, is support from either local authority or dcms or arts council or wherever the rest comes through um revenue generation, either through ticketing or, uh, I don't know, commission, from catering and retail and merchandising, um and sponsorship and um fundraising and the balance of those things is different in every place that you work, but loosely, that tends to be the kind of way it falls out and we are, no, we're no different, really, we sit somewhere loosely within those those sorts of percentages, um. What's interesting here that is a bit different is that we were always set up that way, like I think there was a better understanding from the start with the Barbican, of what it meant to be a properly blended model. It was set up as the Barbican Arts and Conference Centre not the Barbican Arts Centre, interesting to note and the idea was that the conferences and the corporate hires and that sort of activity was basically underpinning paying for the arts. It was never expected that the arts would turn a profit. As it happens, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. You know what it's like varied program.

Speaker 3:

But we also have, you know, fantastic catering opportunities here, I think, and a really excellent just going to say shop. So retail for us, you know, could be a huge kind of growth area. And it's not that again, it's not the kind of right the commercial stuff happens over here and we just mine the money and pump it into the arts. Absolutely they talk to each other. So you know, like the kitchen's the heart of the home, if your catering offer doesn't express the identity of place in the way that your arts program does, it never works. You know it's really important. Same with retail and the merchandising here. You know you come in and you can buy. We do. You know um partnerships with I don't know rough trade recently, that kind of thing. You know it's, it's not, it's really kind of um, sophisticated, I would say, making sure that that model works.

Speaker 3:

And same with our commercial events. You know we want people coming in. So we're hosting, for example, the world design congress. Brilliant, because we have this opportunity now to do proper partnerships, talk to them about how we can display emerging designers alongside their activities. You know, and it's, yes, it's a commercial thing, but it's also a kind of um, you know, shared values, shared interest thing. So it's I suppose it's that it's that kind of um, really complex actually, uh, kind of networking together of all those different aspects of our operation. And I think we're're particularly, I think we're particularly bloody good at sitting here. Actually. I think it does, it works out. I think we will get better. I think that's where we're headed. So, in looking at the buildings, actually we're looking particularly at the catering areas. You know, how can we make sure that they can sustain lots of different types of offer for different audiences? That sort of thing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, no, it's absolutely fundamental, isn't it? And not just fundamental to the success of the Barbican as an entity, but to cities more broadly. That kind of idea of vibrancy, vitality, mixed use, different times of the day, different times of the week you know for all is fundamental really to cities as these kind of engines of humanity really. So you know, it's fascinating and the whole emphasis around the destination city thing is is to, is to broaden, I think, the minds of people from.

Speaker 2:

it's not just a center for banking and commerce it's a center for lots of different things and actually that's why the business wants to be here. People want to not work from home and come in this because it's culturally rich and not as well as kind of the connections with their colleagues. So it all is a virtual circle, it all kind of supports one another and then maybe just to kind of end Pip, it's not in any way a narrow question because it's a very big question, but everything we've talked about, everything you know from your roles at Capital Projects, working for those organizations we talked about, if you were now the, you know, the developer of a mixed-use neighborhood kind of place, um, the spirit of that place, what would that? What would that be? How would you kind of contextualize that? If we're getting off an elevator in the next two minutes, oh my, god, um spirit of place, um optimism, I don't know.

Speaker 3:

I mean, where do you, yeah, um, I think, creating somewhere. I'm really interested in informality. I don't like to dictate behaviors, right. So I do think, like, how do you create a place where people will come and and shape it themselves? I guess, um, so, places of encounter. I'm really interested in that.

Speaker 3:

You know, and that's always been, that's always been a bit of a leading kind of uh mission of mine. I guess um and um, oh gosh, yeah, that's so. That's a. That is quite an enormous question. Um and I and and variety, I think that's the other thing. So, actually, how you value different types of activities. So really interesting conversations recently with um colleagues in our sports department and actually often arts and sports seen separately, it's like, well, surely most of us enjoy both at some point in some way, right, so something about that sort of. We have this kind of odd intellectual um value system about which activities are worthwhile and which are just leisure. You know, I love the idea of a better understanding of the fluidity of all of that and the sort of generative nature of informal behaviors. Yeah, did that.

Speaker 2:

No, that was awesome. That was really good. It was really really good. We're in now, you know, particularly around an ever-advancing kind of digital age and kind of the way the role of cities, the role of what people do, how we spend our time, is exactly as you've just described there. So I think that informality, that ability to adapt, to change, to value the intangible as well as tangible, is essential really to go forward. So I think that's an awesome way to end, pip, and thank you again for your time today.

Speaker 3:

Oh, thank you, it's been fantastic Awesome.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening to the Grow Places podcast. For more information, visit growplacescom and follow us at. We Grow Places across all social channels. See you next time.