Grow Places

GP 45: We Have To Change the Real Estate Industry and The World: with Kristian Kiis of Volcano

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In this energising episode of the Grow Places podcast, Tom Larsson speaks with Kristian Riis—former rock musician and founder of creative placemaking agency Volcano —about the urgent need to rethink how we shape our cities, communities, and lives.

From life on tour with his band Nephew to working alongside governments, cultural entrepreneurs, and the King of Bhutan, Kristian shares how his passion for togetherness has evolved into a mission to transform the built environment. He unpacks the link between culture and wellbeing, why good placemaking is good business, and how temporary activation and flexibility are essential tools for the cities of tomorrow.

Recorded during Kristian’s visit to London for ULI Europe, this conversation weaves global perspectives with real local insight—from Copenhagen to Ulaanbaatar, Victoria Station to Truman Brewery. A powerful reminder that meaningful places aren’t just built—they’re grown, with creativity, compassion, and community at their core.

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the Grow Places podcast, where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth and place Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, Tom Larson.

Speaker 3:

Chris, thanks very much for joining me today on the Grow Places podcast and in London as well. It's fantastic to have you over here for the ULI and, and you know, we've been in contact with each other. We first met, I think, in in Amsterdam at the ULI conference a few years back and been in touch ever since, so, yeah, really good to connect in person again good to see you and good to be back in London as well.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, thanks for inviting no, no, not at all, not at all. And before we dive into this is much detail, a bit of a kind of tangent to your previous career, you know, as a musician um, what, what? Without going into too much detail, what can you tell me about your experiences of people and place and kind of being together from that that has really maybe shaped how you now look in places, in what you do yeah, I think the overall reason why I I work with placemaking and like even creative placemaking, uh, was that touring with my band nephew, a danish rock band.

Speaker 2:

We've been together for 28 years. We still have band, but we haven't been doing any shows for the last five years or so I was, you know, out playing a concert in front of sometimes we play gigs up to 50 000 people and you look at all these smiley faces and everyone is happy and you know, cheering and hanging out and smiling and then going home to my apartment in copenhagen and I live in the center of copenhagen, so it's a quite populated place and it's a very nice street I live in.

Speaker 2:

But coming home, walking out like a Sunday morning and not even saying hi to my neighbor, and knowing that we have issues in the cities like about loneliness and people with mental issues and so on, so I was like, hmm, I know, just playing a concert in itself is good, you know, when people have a good time, I guess that makes sense. That's a meaningful job to have. But I was like how can we use this kind of togetherness that I experience at festivals and other cultural events in our everyday lives, on the rainy days when there's no party, when there's like nothing going on, can we use that as a design element? I know that every day cannot be a party and it shouldn't, but maybe some of the elements that we experience when we're together in these gatherings maybe we can use that for our everyday life experiences. So that's actually why I thought, hmm, let me look into this and dive into this whole urban planning place making aspect.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and then now? Then why don't you give everyone a little bit of a feel for where that's brought you, to what you're doing now?

Speaker 2:

I have a company called Volcano, based in Copenhagen, and it's actually a company I've had for the last 17 years, so it's kind of of it's getting older, like like I am. It started out as a music management company. We started music festivals. We've been doing management for a lot of Danish artists. I worked outside the National Music Export Office in Denmark, working with the Ministry of Culture. I work the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, helping Danish creative companies to get out there in the world. But today we focus. We are like a placemaking agency and you probably talked about that before on the podcast. But placemaking is about not only making buildings but actually creating places where people feel safe, where they feel inspired, where they want to come together. So our focus is very much on building and supporting communities and educational programs, empowering young cultural entrepreneurs in different places in the world. But we can talk more about that, but that's basically what we do and that's why I do what I do today.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, amazing. And then you're here, specifically now with the ULI as well.

Speaker 2:

I'm here for ULI. Yeah, uli, urban Land Institute, is the biggest organization for real estate people in the world. It's an American setup, but that's a big setup in Europe as well. It's an American setup, but that's a big setup in Europe as well. I started the Danish setup around ULI with some people there and now I also started co-chairing the European Product Placemaking Council, meaning that, yeah, we're here. We have a full day tomorrow. We're going to see some of the good examples in London about good place making. But I'm also here because I'm running our royalties program here. We've been doing that in Denmark for 15 years now.

Speaker 2:

We start in London and royalties program is basically about educating younger people between 18 and 30, finding these like cultural entrepreneurs, the biggest talents, and then giving them tools and mentors and insights so they can do really good community engaging events. And then they are going to gather some data. We developed an app called Our Walk app where they can take photos of places in the city. So when they're going to develop a Victoria Station, we will come with input about how do young people and other marginalized groups in London see the station and the potential there. So that's also a reason why I'm here, and then I'm here to hang out with my friends in London and enjoy the good weather finally. So it is really nice to be back yeah, yeah, no, fascinating and um and so.

Speaker 3:

So how do you think you know your, if you want to oversimplify it and say your transition from being a musician into being a built environment professional, you know? I know that's no specific vacation yeah, but how do you, how do you see your, your, your attitude towards place, or the attitude towards problems, or the role that we have in our built environment industry, and do you look at it differently now?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I also. A couple of years ago, I co-founded a real estate company called Home Earth in.

Speaker 2:

Denmark and just getting insights about the real estate industry was like people were like we have about the like real estate industry was like people like we have to change the real estate industry. I'm like, yes, but we actually have to change the world. Like we have to do something now in terms of our environment. And also for me, specializing in these like social issues, I would say I don't know much about buildings, but I learned a lot about people and communities and I did that through my music career, understanding the power of bringing people together. The education program royalties we're doing. It's about again teaching the young people that they can't really make do anything alone. They need to do together with other people.

Speaker 2:

How do you get other people to buy into your idea? How do you motivate the community around you to actually take action and responsibility? So so for me, when I see some of the issues in the bigger cities, but also in more rural areas I work in Bhutan, I'm starting to work in Mongolia, and so on I see a lot of the things that are happening, like the young generation is moving out, not coming back. We see these areas that are really struggling, that are really struggling. A lot of the things I've seen through my career in music is something that I can really use one-to-one now in the work that we do.

Speaker 2:

So I think the focus on human beings and community that is all important to me Also when we are creating new areas and building new cities and so on. So I feel quite lucky. Sometimes I do feel a little bit like an outsider, to be honest, but I think that's good. I think to deal with some of the big issues we have now, we need specialists from different areas and, again, no buildings I don't know what to say for that but humans, yes, that's kind of my approach to this industry right now.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, no, no, I completely agree with you and I think that unique take that you've got, I think everyone's life experience is what makes them actually very well qualified to talk about places, whether they work in the industry or they use buildings or customers. And the more inputs and perspectives we can get into the process of shaping, growing, making kind of places think, I think, the better and um and so. So how do you, how do you see that then, in terms of like those, maybe those kind of components of place, those components of of everyday life that come together to improve people's well-being, people's quality of life, people's experiences?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I am, I, I, I, I kind of feel that we're still a little bit lagging behind the actual situation. I think, still, if there's a new project, if a city comes up with a new project and you apply for that to make a new place, a new area, I think the focus is very much on the practicalities, like the old school part of it, so to say. And I feel also, when I started working with placemaking and I was approaching developers, I said, oh, you should make this cool setup, you should have like an event strategy, you should have the coolest new bakery, you should have the nice venue. And they're like oh yeah, christian, it sounds great, uh, but we can't afford it. And I was like, but but you know, when you insert a nice area, even though, like, even if you're old or a kid, you you that feeling that it's very hard to put into the spreadsheet, that feeling that's not only important for people's like well-being, for the communities, for fighting loneliness, but it's actually also good business. If we make a good place, tourists will come. Probably, you know, real estate price will go up, it is a good investment, but but and so? So I told these developers I'm like, hey, it is a good investment and they say that OK, show us the numbers. So actually I went to one of the big foundations, realdania in Denmark, and I said we need to boil down the numbers to prove that it is a good investment. Money for me is not a goal, but it's a good tool to reach the goals.

Speaker 2:

A lot of these developers they're backed by like a pension fund and they have one purpose and that is to optimize the profit. So they're not good or evil, that's just how they are. If they don't, they get a bigger kickback for their members or investors, then they will die. So I was like, okay, if I can show actually doing good, creating nice places, it gives a bigger financial return on investment. Then we have something going on. So I've been working on that for the last couple of years and now we develop kind of a formula and we can see that if you really do good placemaking, it's also good for the financial kickback.

Speaker 2:

So again, as a, a musician, a guitarist, I don't have any economical or financial education, but I do understand. Speaking the language to the people that I'm meeting and yeah, maybe for you that are actually looking at this podcast, I I'm not like wearing a suit or something like that. I think, like you said before, we need all kind of people to be part of this process, and I'm contributing for my corner, which is culture, creativity and community. But I'm trying to speak a language where the money people understand what I want to do, because if I don't do that, I will not make like a sustainable impact in the real estate world. So that's basically how I think and I see people now like, okay, this makes sense, we need this because we need a bigger return. For me, it's more about creating better lives. For them, it's about making money, but it's fine If we can both win. It's a win-win situation.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah and um, as you say, I think those conversations about holistic value, if you want to call it that value that's more than just money, I think is fundamental now of course to actually to these, to the investors as well, even if it is um, maybe as the secondary thing to the core driver and in your case, the other way around.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I agree, but it is secondary. Yeah For them. And again, money is not good or evil, it's just there and that's what kind of drives our society and the world. So if we both can make them happy and make people happy and create better lives, then I think it is a win-win situation.

Speaker 3:

So that's how I work. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's the thing we know as a developer If you want to get off paper or from idea to reality.

Speaker 3:

You have to make things work, and I don't know what it's like in Denmark or the other places, but in London and the UK it is so difficult to make projects stack up, to make projects viable up, to make projects viable to, to deliver the impact that people want to deliver, and so it's fundamental to have that from from day one. But I think that the better processes, projects are the ones that actually you know the common goal and the vision is around the quality of life and the people and, as you say, the how we get there is through through the um, the financial mechanisms and other such things.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, it is, and and we also see that even in london now that if some of the like cultural elements are dying or missing, that have an impact on the, on the on the financial side as well. Like, maybe the nighttime economy is struggling, then if the clubs are closing down, maybe you're closing down some of the, the, the underground lines or something like that, or at least the, the mobility is kind of decreasing in the city and that has an effect on the economy as well. So it's also about looking at it in like a big perspective, like society. What does it mean for the whole economy? And then you can break it down and look to look down on on each individual project or building, even to say what kind of impact does it have if we do this or that. So for me it's also like creating tools, uh, where you understand the bigger picture but you can also zoom in and focus on each individual project. Then we can understand much more the consequences of the actions that we take.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, you've mentioned a couple of times in this conversation already the word culture and kind of that being intrinsic to place and how you think about things. And you know we were talking weren't we before this about about the pandemic and the shifts in and where people live, and, and not just that, but the effect on the nighttime economy and and what that does to the feel and the and the vibrancy and and the sort of the life of, of places and and and everything is connected, isn't it, as you say, from transport networks through. So so how do you see culture, place and maybe that kind of economic piece within that? What does culture mean to you?

Speaker 2:

I think, coming from the culture industry, I used to run a theatre in Copenhagen nightclub. I started two festivals. When you, when you work with, like cultural venues, you often focus very much on the venue, saying, okay, we need to sell tickets, we need to sell drinks, stuff like that. But I think sometimes people should look up and understand that even though you have a venue, maybe in a certain building, that has an impact on the whole city. I mean you really contribute. We can see that around the world that if you have good cultural places, people will go there when you have time. What is life about? It is actually experiences. It's enjoying something, usually together with other people. So I think culture is not only entertainment or fun. It's actually a very fundamental part of our lives to create good lives and it's also a driver for economy and I think you know now I talked about the real estate world, some of their issues.

Speaker 2:

I think in the in the cultural world, um, there's a lot of people that don't understand actually the impact they that they have. So I mean, like you, representing a venue or festival, something like that, that's a good argument for you to get more investment and so on. So also understanding the more commercial side of the culture is important, and I don't see, when we take the part of culture maybe like more arts, a lot of artists they're like they don't want to drive a certain agenda. But I think, like when we work with art in urban spaces, I think that art should be very approachable and also useful for people. It should be beautiful to look at, but it should also be something where people can actually interact with the art. So culture and art for me it's something that makes my life more fun, it's something that connects me to other people, but it's also a driver for economy in general and we should understand the value because then we have bigger, better arguments.

Speaker 2:

I think denmark, as an example for the listener that might not know denmark that well, we're contrary about just less than six million people, but, um, our architecture, design, music, the whole cultural, creative side, that's what's driving our country. We don't have enough gas and oil. We have now green energy and so on, but I think Denmark is a really good example. If you really use culture and art as a driver, also for business, that's a huge potential for business.

Speaker 3:

That's a huge potential. Yeah, I think what, um, what denmark also does coburn hagen particularly, is it? It uses kind of everyday life as a kind of driver as well. So, yeah, whether that is the routine of going to to the bakery or take your kids to nursery, or swimming in the river or whatever it might be, that is kind of integrated into the culture of the place and therefore the physical aspects of the place and the lifestyle very much.

Speaker 2:

That's something I'm always very envious of when I yeah, I go there and of course, we do have issues in compagny, like everywhere else, but I think just the fact that you made it into like a city where you can take your bike cycle to work 50% of all people commuting to it works there on the bike cycles so that means something for, of course, a pollution, but also for health. It's good to use your body right, although the water in the harbor, which is like inside the center of the city, it's clean, so people are swimming all year round. That's also good for health. When we have like bike festivals and happenings, almost every weekend they close the city down for marathons and so on. So the culture is very much about being together around, something that's not about efficiency or something like that.

Speaker 2:

I kind of like some of the friction that we have in Copenhagen. I like that I can use my bike every day. There's a lot of cultural events and so on, so the mobility is great and, yeah, I think culture, culture, creativity is something that's a that's a strong driver for Denmark and especially for Copenhagen.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely, and you know we we, as like lots of parts of the world, look to Copenhagen as a very good example of livable places. But that being your hometown, you obviously see the positives, but you probably see some other sides to the place as well.

Speaker 3:

So maybe, like you know, it's like anyone looking at London. You know, as a Londoner, you think about it, the pros and cons. Is there anything like maybe a more sort of slightly balanced view that you can give about Copenhagen as a place? What are some of the struggles that you're facing, that you are trying to help people with in terms of your role?

Speaker 2:

I still see that some of the projects it's moving a little bit too fast. You know the city is like OK, we have this area, it has to be developed, someone is applying for that, and then get the permits and somehow suddenly they build something that's not super nice, so then you have to kind of repair parts of the city. I think the issue. I think Copenhagen is a very nice and well-functioning city in general. It's also much smaller city than London, but then when you get the less successful projects, you really see that. So people are very much like suddenly very fast, like judging a new area of the city or something like that, and that's something that we should work with. I think we can be even better at understanding. How do you kind of make things go hand in hand in terms of building more like sustainable buildings, making sure that people eat good, healthy food that they have access to again, mobility through bikes and so on? But I must say like we got our subway and metro system for the last five years or something like that, and that's also changed the city for the better. So again, I lived in LA for a few years before the pandemic and I love LA, I love sun palms. I love Sun Palms, I love Joshua Tree.

Speaker 2:

But actually, coming back to Copenhagen, I saw things in a different perspective. There's a lot of things that we do well. We have very little issue with homeless people, rough sleepers and so on. Of course we have that too, but everyone can get a place to sleep at night and so on. That's something I see also when I go back to the US LA, san Francisco, big issues, london as well and then, first of all, that's very sad for the people that are in that situation, but I think also in general, it's not something people like you know, I think everyone is like is like how do we fix that situation? And I don't think it's an easy fix, but I think definitely there's elements that that and and approaches and tools we can use to actually work with that. And I do believe also, when it comes to like the homeless situation, that culture, creativity can, can be a part of the solution as well.

Speaker 2:

And I think also what we see in Denmark now, when new areas is being developed, the cities usually say we're not pushing homeless people out, we wanna integrate them in some way. How do we give them something to do and a more meaningful life and so on. I know in the US, again, everyone want to fix it. I know it's a very big issue, but the system is broken, so I think that's something that we should be very aware of and also make sure that we still take care of people. There's a lot of reasons in Denmark that we pay a lot of tax, free education, free healthcare and and so on, and then, of course, I think, in copenhagen, other cities how do we, you know, keep the contact between people? How do we create elements where it's easy to tap into communities, um, that you feel you're part of something? We could still be better at doing that in Copenhagen as well. Danes are a bit reserved, to be honest, but I think we're getting there and I think the city is getting better and better, so I really appreciate that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, no, definitely, and I think the point you touched on earlier about the pace of life and cities and change and I think working in the industry we often get frustrated with things not happening quickly enough when our project is three, five, ten years long and I think you know different topic. But there's many things we could do to speed up the process, to make things happen quicker and more efficiently without damaging kind of the place and the life just simply a procedural.

Speaker 2:

Coming from the cultural world, uh, usually the longest perspective you have is a year onto the next festival, the next release or something like that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, coming into the real estate world. For me, I was I'm like, oh my god, I might not ever see this project actually happen. It will be in 30 years or something like that. So I think it's good to speed up things, but yeah, but you have to remember, uh, that it's important to think about the more sustainable environmental aspect, the social aspect as well, and, um, I and I do feel a more openness also in the real estate industry, or what we call it towards, like, understanding the importance of actually making good places and including people and so on.

Speaker 2:

That's something we do in Volcano as well is very much engaging community and listening to the voices that are usually not heard, because if you want to create good cities, we need to have a diverse city. No one just want to live with people that look exactly like yourself, and that's not something that's just happening. So, if you do a new project, if it's too expensive, some groups cannot be part of it. So how do you make sure to make that diversity, to make like a thriving city and not only a gated community for rich people or poor people or something like that?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, no, totally. And you know our whole sort of ethos at Grow Places is to grow places, so sort of place growth, and it's a slower sort of process as well. Um, and it chimes in a lot with what you're describing there and um, you know, I know we're we're here on the uli placemaking um council but we actually have a slightly different take of almost sort of challenging in some ways the idea that places are made and actually the more that they're grown, that they're kind of nurtured and they're with the people and the places that are happening there and that's not just a physical thing, that's also like a socio-economic thing about. So everything you're talking about and touching on is is exactly that kind of idea and um, and, and it's how I think successful places you know, like our project at truman brewery where we're bringing forward eight new buildings and about 50 000 square meters of new space across different um parts of the existing site, is is the success of that project is how can we celebrate everything that the building in the neighborhood already does and then kind of add to it in a way that you don't really feel like it's changed but then it's kind of grown and it's kind of developed over time and the success of that place is very much.

Speaker 3:

Actually it's like there's really quick pace of change of of things that don't, uh, have a lot of consequence. So it's a lot of freedom to explore, whether it's a festival or it's an event, the pop up, or it's things that are gonna not not, um not have a big kind of, you could say, abortive cost if things go wrong. And then taking things really slowly about the big moves that are going to kind of not be quite hard to change and that sort of um interest that comes from a street changing, um not not even from month to month, sometimes week to week. There's a pop-up retail unit or there's a clothing outlet or there's a podcast going on or there's a consultation event going on.

Speaker 2:

That quick pace of change, married with this kind of slow pace of growth, is quite interesting dynamic, I think so it's but also like, like the way you describe it is also like like a testing round, almost like you could try something out and in the worst case, you tried it and it was not a success, but it didn't kind of destroy the whole process. Maybe, if it's a big success and it was just meant some like temporary, maybe it's something you say, okay, this should be part of this area, like every year we have this visual or this podcast or whatever you talk about.

Speaker 2:

So I, I I'm a big fan of testing things, not thinking too, much and actually doing it, yeah, and then from from the learnings you get, how can you use that to actually develop an area?

Speaker 3:

so exactly, yeah, well, it will in. I know you're in tech as well. You call it minimum viable product. So tech it's like this kind of like churn model yeah and then um, the issue with places is you can't necessarily sort of take them down overnight and refresh the put it back up again, no, no that's true, but you can, with obviously these flexible spaces and things.

Speaker 2:

And you can design the places more flexible. Also because one thing is like what are the needs right now, but what will happen five or ten years and so on. So the more flexibility and also more like multi-purpose use of space. We're still kind of conservative. I had a conversation the other day with a friend. He's starting a new school. He's like why, when you see a school like after four, it's just all quiet and so on here, why don't we do like this bakery? So people like to go to the school to get the bread, so the kids like to get the good bread and not so? So I think we can do much more about that and I think, especially in the city like London, what I hear from our royalties participants is like they often need space, they need places to do stuff, and then I know that's also a lot of empty space, because maybe someone is developing a space and it takes like a few years to raise the funds or get the permits, something like that.

Speaker 2:

This temporary activation of space, I think it's super important, also because we see that even in Copenhagen that a lot of our retail shops are dying because people shop online and and so on and a lot of the developers are like, oh, we'll wait to see it, it would be better, right, because they're afraid of giving away the space for free and so on. But I really think also in cities you again about creating places. When you walk around in a town or city where the stores are closed, there's a weird feeling around it. It feels less safe or less accommodating or including. So I think actually there the culture and a lot of the people that really want to do something, but they need space. I think we should try to give them space and connect that with some of the developers' new projects also.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, no, I completely agree. One thing that I've kind of noticed more and more I've kind of worked within the industry is you could use kind of some of the more sort of now cliched terms like ecosystems or other things like that, which I think are very valid, but it's actually use kind of some of the more sort of now cliche terms like ecosystems or other things like that, which is I think are very valid, but it's actually this kind of like fragility of place, like they're actually quite fragile, and there's lots of interrelationships between different things and you don't have, um, maybe, much appreciation for, like you know, if the, if the clubs can't stay open at night, then what impact does that have on on the transport network? Or if you have to work from home more? So it's just an interconnected thing between hard infrastructure, economics, socioeconomics, people, nature. That is ever changing, long term, short term, all these things, and that's what makes it completely fascinating. But they are also so interrelated as streams, aren't they?

Speaker 2:

Totally, and I think you see some global tendencies in what's happening and also some local things. So it's also about understanding what is happening, like, for example, the work that I'm doing with the king of Bhutan. In Bhutan he's building a new city called Galitwa, the Mindfulness City, and he's doing that basically because, even though it's one of the most happy places in the world, when young people are finishing their educations, they get a job and they kind of stay there all their lives, so they don't have a lot of opportunities. So they have population or about like 800,000 people. So a small country, but around 50,000 young people left the last few years, meaning that there's a big brain drain. And so it's about getting the economy going but also creating opportunities locally, because everyone is connected, everyone can see what's going on anywhere.

Speaker 2:

So how do you locally also create that value? If you want people to stay, at least to come back when they've been out, what do they come back to? And today there's so many nice things going on, also for the younger generation, and we need to stimulate that also locally, and I think London, as an example, have a lot of good opportunities that are not really being used to its fullest. So I really hope that, like you talked about the nighttime economy and so on, that you'll be able to find a way where you can actually use that. I think, coming from Denmark, looking at London for the years, like the whole club scene, electronic music scene is something that's been a big thing. It's been a big thing, a part of our life as well and a reason to go to London and hang out and explore and so on. So, yeah, it's kind of affecting each other in what's happening and it's not something you just say, ah, it doesn't matter, let's do something else, and that might have a big consequence.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, no, I completely agree with you, and so maybe then, just to conclude, what are you excited about your trip here to London? I know we've got dinner and we're going on tours and stuff, but what are you actually excited about this place, or showing people, or exploring or learning about?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think today I'm very excited to meet all the participants at our royalties London program and again, just a few things about that is that we have been onboarding around 30 of like the biggest younger talents like within cultural entrepreneurship, and I haven't had the chance to meet them yet and I'm gonna see them near this afternoon. What I find super interesting is that of course, I'm going to have like a presentation and and and and and speaking to them, but I really want to learn from them what's going on. Some of them they don't have any education background but they kind of have the drive and the fire in the eyes. And they don't have any educational background, but they kind of have the drive and the fire in the eyes and they want to do something. So I really love the fact that, with my experience and network, that we can activate them and we can empower them to really accelerate what they do. They are attending the program because they want to have like cool mentors and do these cool events, but they are also part of actually gathering data for the development of Victoria Station. So I think that's kind of a beautiful way of doing it and a new and more innovative approach.

Speaker 2:

So I'm super excited about meeting them, understanding more about their lives, because I can learn a lot from them. They're going out all the time. I'm looking forward to hear about their London, in a way, so so I'm excited about that. When it comes to you and I, I think we have gathered a good group of people from around Europe and I I'm always very excited about hearing what's going on in different parts of Europe and meeting like-minded people, but that comes from different backgrounds, so I'm excited about that. And then we have a full program tomorrow. We're going to see a lot of cool places around London and again, I'm still new to London, even though I've been here a few times over the last many years. Now I'm kind of diving more into the city and learning about both the potentials but also the challenges that are here, and I cannot fix everything, but I hope I can contribute to making it into an even better city than than it is now awesome and and the first thing you did there was gay.

Speaker 3:

you're just going to go and talk to people and learn from the people and that gives you everything you kind of need to know.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, again, I'm starting a project in Ulaanbaatar in Mongolia this fall and I will start going there for a couple of weeks with no agenda, I should just. Usually I meet musicians because we kind of have a common language and from there I have understanding what's going on. So that's my approach to building a 30-storey building, a headquarter in the capital, is actually through meeting music and cultural entrepreneurs and learning from them.

Speaker 3:

Great, great Well fascinating to hear more about that and to continue our great discussions about people, place and kind of how everything is connected, and thank you for your time today and to continue our great discussions about people, place and kind of how everything is connected, and thank you for your time today.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for inviting and maybe we should arrange you coming to Copenhagen and doing like a couple of podcast episodes from there.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, well, it's funny you mentioned that actually because I haven't told you this, but I had planned on justifying a trip to Copenhagen to do exactly that, around meeting you and a few other people, and so I'm glad now that we can confirm that It'd be great to do. Yeah, Thank you.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much and good luck with all your great work. Thanks, see you later. See you.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening to the Grow Places podcast. For more information, visit growplacescom and follow us at. We Grow Places across all social channels. See you next time.