Grow Places

GP 44: Unlocking Major Regeneration: with Sophie Rosier of Savills

• Grow Places • Season 1 • Episode 44

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In this episode of the Grow Places Podcast, host Tom Larsson sits down with Sophie Rosier, Head of London Mixed Use, Development, at Savills to explore the evolving landscape of city-making. From her early days at Television Centre to leading complex regeneration projects like Brent Cross Town, Sophie shares how passion, collaboration, and strategic vision are reshaping London’s urban fabric.

They discuss the increasing complexity of unlocking major mixed-use developments, the role of long-term partnerships, and the transformative impact of early community engagement. Sophie also highlights the importance of programs like UrbanPlan in inspiring the next generation and how simple values—like building trust and safe, inclusive spaces—can drive long-lasting impact.

Whether you're a seasoned property professional or someone curious about how our cities are shaped, this episode offers a heartfelt and insightful look into the people and purpose behind large-scale development.

🎧 Tune in to hear how cities evolve—and how we can make them better.

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the Grow Places podcast, where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth and place Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, tom Larson.

Speaker 2:

Hi Soph.

Speaker 3:

Hi Tom, how are you doing Good? Good to see you.

Speaker 2:

I've just come over from Television Centre, as I was saying before this, filming another podcast, but I'm reminiscing about all the times we spent there. Yeah, 10 years ago now is 10 years ago.

Speaker 3:

That would be where we met, probably on that yeah, it was I still love I mean, I still love white city. I think it's like still one of the coolest places to live in london. Um, and such an amazing project yeah, yeah, that's great times have changed since that, though that was launched in the market, I think in a totally different place, but such an amazing area of change and so many interesting things happening there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, no, it's great. So why don't you just give a bit of an introduction to yourself and the work that you're doing here at Savills?

Speaker 3:

Rosia, for those that don't know me, I'm head of London mixed use here at Savills, um. I am a strategic development consultant, um, and we specialize in pre-planning complex projects across London. What we like to call in-house is like city making projects. So large mixed use, complicated uh land parcels all over our great city and it's my job to try and help unlock them, bring them to market yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So there's a lot of um we can obviously dive into here, and it's a really interesting time, isn't it to be, to be in development at the moment and I'd have thought, you know, through the lens that savels has got, you know, pretty unique position in the industry of being across disciplines and across areas, um, globally as well as nationally. You must, um, you, um, you must, yeah, you must sort of see and feel what's going on in the, in the sector, quite readily at the moment.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think we um, we definitely like to think that we do like we're a huge business now in London, Like we ourselves have seen so much growth in the last 15 years since I've been here Um 1100 of us in our head office here in Oxford circus, um, so the breadth that we cover as a business, I think, is pretty uniquely placed.

Speaker 3:

What I would say is I don't think we've ever talked to each other as much as we have, probably in the last couple of years, like two years, that's, across service lines, specialisms. It's harder than it ever has been to kind of unlock opportunities and I think it's kind of grayer than ever in terms of what the right use and what the right outcome for that site is. Um, but for me, like personally, I love that because whilst my kind of foundation and background has been in residential development primarily, I'm so interested in all of it and I think everything interesting is such a combination of uses and flavors that I love being able to collaborate with people across the business and learn from them and find out what their other markets are doing and just it's just all a big complicated puzzle, isn't it? We've just got to figure out yeah, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, and that's what makes cities and neighborhoods and places so interesting is that diversity of uses, mix of uses and then the mix of businesses and activities and people and life that comes with that, and I think, as you say, like no more so than ever. I think this kind of, you know, hybrid buildings, mixed use buildings or even mixed use spaces and operational models is so fundamental to value going forwards. Mixed use spaces and operational models is so fundamental to to value going forwards. Um, and how does that actually work then, maybe in practice, in terms of the way that you bring these different skill sets to bear?

Speaker 3:

I think um, one of the reasons I think why, um I've got this role within our business is because I've been here such a long like I've been here such a long time now I've been here 15 years and I think, um, I know everyone really well and I think I did benefit coming into the business when it was a much, much smaller business. Um, and people really love working here, which is great, so people don't tend to leave that often, so a lot of people that I started with are still here, which is great, and you kind of move and grow and evolve together. But I think um, so for me it's I think primarily it's like the internal network and knowing who's the right person to go to, who to pick up the phone to, and actually I think, like within life, it's just. I think that's about having built a solid foundation, hopefully with those people, like building good relationships. Saying hello to people in the kitchens and the lifts and just like being interested I think puts you in such a good place. Then, when you need a favor or you need some help with something that you can actually like, people will say yes to you if you've helped them before or you're nice to people Like niceness goes quite a long way, doesn't it? So I think we've got a great pool of specialists to come from.

Speaker 3:

So I think what we do from our team is like we take a step back and we think like right, what are all the possible outcomes, like for this site?

Speaker 3:

And then we'll go and find the right team. And most like a huge part of my job is like building that savels team for each project. Um, so it's tailored and it's bespoke, and then if it evolves and you need to sub people in and out, then like fine, that's just kind of what happens. But I think so, particularly because the focus is on big projects, like we want to be working together in collaboration, in partnership with the landowners, um, or kind of development managers, whatever that role will be our client ultimately for a really long time, and these projects take such a long time to come forward that you've got to have that foundation of trust, and trust comes from doing a good job, like on time, and so building that right team is critical basics really yeah, yeah, no, well, definitely, and um, so that that kind of niche that you have created within savels itself around large scale mixed use, strategic um projects and pipelines.

Speaker 2:

Um, why has that been of interest to you in terms of um, you know, spending your time doing that?

Speaker 3:

so I think whole combination of factors. I think savels is like always backed big projects, like early days projects, um, and it's not just me that sort of does that. I mean David Williams, who's an executive director within our business, was there like on the very early early days of King's Cross and completely understood and was brought into the potential that that place could come. And I think we're 30 years in on that now, like we're still there. So David's still there like on that project. So I think there was amazing precedent within the business for kind of speccing that time on these sort of major strategic opportunities.

Speaker 3:

I think for me personally, probably a bit of educational background I studied architecture at uni, ended up doing a master's in urban and regional planning which I loved every minute of, and that was kind of up at University of Birmingham. It was based around kind of big regenny type case studies like on the course um, and I love that. And then I think when I came to savels um doing the graduate program planning and development pathway, it was very I was very kind of, I was settling into that space, loved development um landed in london, resi development and actually I think at the time like new homes in particular, which that team fed. It was so sent. It was really central london and it was the start of some of these regen areas starting to be unlocked like white city, like nine elms um, we were coming up like just having the olympics.

Speaker 3:

So there was all the development now in stratford, greenwich peninsula was kind of kicking off, wembley was just happening. So there was all the development now in Stratford, greenwich Peninsula was kind of kicking off, wembley was just happening. So there was suddenly all of these like non-core big opportunity areas, um, that someone kind of needed to work on. So I was just really fortunate that I managed to follow and shadow people around for like the first few years of my life, looking at some of these amazing opportunities that are now delivered, part delivered, still underway, and kind of fell in love with the big, grisly, messy stuff.

Speaker 2:

Really, to be honest with you, yeah, yeah, well, we, we're operating in similar spaces there because, um, you know, for me at least, I think those big projects, yes, they're complicated, yes they're long term, but actually in that is where there's the real opportunity to, to have proper impact in terms of um, how a place grows, how our neighborhood um functions and and who it kind of functions for and um, so, how do you see that you know the kind of like the um, the human side of of what we do, and maybe actually, you know don't necessarily have to have specific examples, but maybe, like over the 10-15 years that you've been specifically looking at this, maybe how that's changed.

Speaker 3:

Really interesting question so I think one really live. One for me at the moment is at Brentcross Town that we've been working with Related Argent on for a decade and we are just coming up to the first completion of the residential buildings there. But the really interesting bit for me um on that project um is actually nothing really to do with the buildings themselves at all. Um, it's whenever I go down on site and the weather's good that the park that they delivered up front early is just so full of people like local people, kids, enjoying it, um, like parents, their grandpa's, like multi-generational, so dynamic. Like I live in Ealing, I've taken my kids out at the weekend because the park's so cool and it's really like it's just a great place to hang out and amazing facilities and I think seeing that live in action is just it's so, it's so amazing and it does make and I've had nothing to do with that park like at all. Really that's not what we've been focused on, but I think the joy and the pride that you feel and like seeing people actually like using these spaces is so wonderful.

Speaker 3:

And actually I do quite a lot with the um you, I do the urban plan ULI program and I've done two sessions at the school there, which is really interesting because they're really punchy kids like they should be and they ask really challenging, really interesting questions and like this whole new town is going to put on their doorstep and I think Like it's really interesting hearing how they feel about all of this new development coming in and they're very direct and very honest with their questioning and I think that what's been great since then is one person showed such interest. We've like since had the mental work experience. We've helped support them getting on an apprenticeship program and actually like these projects do change people's lives and trajectories. And actually, like these projects do change people's lives and trajectories and I think as an industry I don't think we talk about that enough is like the impact outside of just like the physical building, but the wider impact on neighbourhoods and people. At the end of the day, that's who's experiencing them.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I've done the ULI plan a few times at different schools. It's really fascinating actually isn't it Just maybe for anyone listening what you just described what that is, because people might want to get involved with that um.

Speaker 3:

So urban plan is a program run by the uli which goes into schools to try and get um help with diversity into our industry and help um secondary school-aged children like understand kind of and have a bit of a demo of what real estate is like and it's quite.

Speaker 3:

I would say it's quite. It's very development focused because you effectively get given like a model town and you've got to decide where to put the commercial buildings, the housing, the mix between affordable and private, and there's a very clever, snazzy little app that they have on their iPads and they have to make it financially viable. They can um over spec it to hit higher sustainability credentials and they do all of this in like a couple of hours and it is so amazing. They go from like knowing nothing to honestly always having a viable, credible development opportunity with an interesting project name, normally um in these few hours and it's amazing how much they can absorb and how quickly it is. It actually kind of puts our industry to shame about how long it takes us to figure out these things. We've all been trained for so long, but it's an amazing like. It's amazing and I love doing it so much it's brilliant.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it is fascinating, I found that as well. It's um, it's amazing and um. I think we can learn a massive amount actually in the industry from how um people who aren't necessarily from the industry, but you know everyone has an opinion on place because they live in places. You know, we experience places every day of our lives and um, I think that is an aspect of what we're looking at grow places, about how we can kind of empower people um to engage with the process and and not only in a sort of tokenistic or consultatory way, actually in a proper participatory nature, to try and actually shape these projects and um. I think that's a really good example of where, as you say, you've got um a group of kind of willing um industry specialists who kind of give out their time to go into these schools. You've obviously got the energy and the um youthfully exuberance of the kids and then what you and I have done with this kind of piece of technology to kind of unlock all of that.

Speaker 2:

And I think there's a great little case study for what we can do on projects and in our processes and I guess, like you know, our time working together and also probably with other clients, like we can spend quite a lot of time sat in boardrooms, can't we and we can or in design team meetings or in agency meetings and actually trying to trying to get out and just try and be in communities and and experience what kind of is going on locally is really important, and I think savills is really interestingly placed because you you've got this kind of international lens and a national lens that you can kind of bring the kind of the intelligence of that and the power of that and the data of that and then kind of stitching it together with, like really local examples of of what's going on in places. Um, how do you see that in terms of some of the strategic initiatives you're doing because I know you're working with public sector as well as private sector and, um, yeah, how that, how that process can kind of um inform one another?

Speaker 3:

so, yeah, I think for it's a it's a big task to sort of manage like we are a huge global business now and um doing lots and lots of different types of activities as well, and I think that's really important.

Speaker 3:

So I think it's quite easy to look at the subbles badge and and like I mean often people just think of like high street estate agency and then you immediately jump to agency forms but actually, like the majority of our business is actually like service provision and we've got a huge management function lots and lots of different advisory services from, like development advisory, planning, consultancy, um we have new and emerging sectors within that um.

Speaker 3:

So Savile's Earth, which is the coolest sounding team name but encompassing everything that like looks at kind of environmental and social um sort of aspects, and Wesley Ankerer has come in to run our social value division there and he's bringing like a fantastic, like entirely different lens of looking at projects, and so I think what we're trying to do at the moment is like our head office in is in London and so we kind of this is the center of like all of that global business and we do learn a lot from all of our colleagues all around the world, I think, like the tech and innovation that's going on in like Asia and Middle East with these projects is starting to get fed out into the teams now, which is like is phenomenal in terms of the rate of progression that's happening over there, um, but I think in terms of like capital flows for investment into projects, like our global network of agents, with kind of US, australian, like, um, asian money like that's so critical to London, which like relies on that to unlock a lot of these development opportunities, I think what we're trying to do is sort of also use all of this data and sort of live day-to-day activity to sort of look forward and look at how we can sort of plan better and look at projects in a different way.

Speaker 3:

Plan better and look at projects in a different way and because I think that is what's going to be needed to kind of get these to unlock these opportunities. Going forward is, I think, a linear way of looking at real estate. It's always going to be the foundation, but actually it's not going to get a lot of these projects out of the ground anymore. So we're going to have to start looking at different income streams, different return metrics, different outputs in order to get, get these projects like out the ground and progressed really, but um, but yes, really interesting time and the world's feeling smaller, but there's just a lot of information to share.

Speaker 2:

I would would say, yeah, yeah, I think that's good and there's often a massive amount that we can learn, isn't there, from different places and different approaches around the world. And obviously you know London, we are a world city but we're a very established place, you know, in terms of you know democracy and kind and policies and governance and the good and maybe the downsides that come from that. And when you look at other parts of the world and other places, there's huge energy, optimism, growth that's happening in different parts of the world, but maybe without that kind of historical kind of nuance or the kind of the learning that happens through years and years of evolution of places. And I think it would be really interesting to think about from these big strategic projects kind of what we can learn from other parts of the world.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, definitely, and I think what is really interesting is that I think, as everyone, london's still like a favourite, I think, all around the world Projects, like we've already mentioned it, like King's Cross, it's still used by colleagues in the Middle East when kind of pitching, which is what we as agents do on projects, as like an exemplar.

Speaker 3:

Again, people look at Hudson Yards in New York as well kind of pitching, which is what we as agents do on projects as like an exemplar um again, like people look at hudson yards in new york as well as another little major infrastructure like flagship. But australia's got amazing examples. Everyone always still looks at like bangaroo down there. That was done so well. So I think and I think now there's more there's some fascinating and really amazing projects coming out of europe, like mine to milan that lenny's been delivering um is like really interesting. There's lots going on there and think so, but I think it there's.

Speaker 3:

Innovation is great and collaboration, like collaboration to sort of accelerate how we can do things more efficiently, and I think efficiently in terms of both like output, but also in terms of delivery as well.

Speaker 3:

And I think, like construction innovation is like particularly important in this space is really brilliant. But I think it always comes like capital flows is what's then interesting and then back in the projects because actually, like our history, our robust education, like latter days like a bit more unstable but are generally stable, like political environment, our time zone, like all of those fundamentals are still like so true for the uk, um, and I think that that puts us in a really privileged position that we sometimes forget um, but should really be like taking advantage of like not just in london but across the whole uk, like all of our cities are amazing for so many different reasons, um, and I think that's for me that's kind of exciting and that conversation that we're having internally is really exciting about actually greater connectivity across our like UK cities and learning a lot of lessons like internally and and sharing clients and and work that we're doing to kind of put our cities in the strongest position yeah, yeah, no, definitely, definitely and um.

Speaker 2:

So I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I've always sort of looked at you and saw you as someone who's kind of very kind of. You know, purpose driven in the way that you operate. You know you're working within Savills, which is a huge company, but you've always, to me at least, you've got a kind of purpose and drive as to why you're doing what you're doing within the big entity. So I don't know if you feel able to articulate why that is or what those sort of things are that drive you um day to day.

Speaker 3:

That. Well, that's one very nice of you to say, um, so thank you very much for saying that. But I think you know I do feel like I have, I definitely have a drive. I think anyone that works with me or has worked alongside me, um, definitely knows that I'm, that I have a drive to. I think it comes from two different places. I think one.

Speaker 3:

I've ended up in a job that I really love and I also like I get it, like I think my brain fits this job as well, and so I understand it. I've got an. I feel like I've got a bit of an instinct on it, um, and so for me that's brilliant because I'm genuinely interested and just like passionate and keen to learn and sort of grow my like, evolve my thinking and my knowledge as well on a day to day basis, which I think is just so important for our industry. I really, just I really love London, and I'm not a native Londoner. I grew up in the Midlands and I came on a school trip down here when I was at secondary school. I went to the National Portrait Gallery and I went home and I told my mum that I was going to live in London, and I just think there is so much here and there's so much, there's so many good things and it's so enriching and I've chosen to stay here and, like, raise my family here.

Speaker 3:

But I just think I have this desire to just make help, make great places in it, and I think it's a really difficult thing sometimes as a service provider, which effectively is what we are we don't we make recommendations are that we don't we make recommendations but we don't make decisions.

Speaker 3:

So we only ever play like quite a small part in the journey of these projects. But I think it's an important part and I think um a trusted advisor, which is like the ultimate goal from my personal perspective. Um is, I think, a really unique role and I if we can do, if I can play just a small part in unlocking some of these amazing places. So, almost looping back to what we said at the beginning, like it does have the impact to change people's lives and there's nothing more exciting than like walking up to a building that's been a square on a piece of paper for such a long time and suddenly you open a door and like you stand in that space and you remember all of those years, all that time, all of those people, all that money that's poured into that, to get to that place today, and I just think it's a privilege to build our city and so I think you want to do it well and you want to do a good job.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so that, I think, is probably where it comes from yeah, yeah, yeah, no, definitely, and um, and that impact of kind of, you know, helping to improve people's lives. You know how do you think, maybe, that in terms of your work, what does that mean to you? Are there any kind of tangible examples you can think of about where you look with pride about what you've, you've done, all the work that you've, you've undertaken?

Speaker 3:

I mean, I think, because of the nature of the projects I'm involved in, like we've, like we've delivered some things like loads of it's still in the ground or like not even out the ground yet and it's taken it's been 15 years in. I think the thing that I, um, I really love and I actually really love this about savels as which is again probably a reason why I've been here as long as I have now is that everyone I think there's a lot of like-minded people and people have a lot of passion, side hustle kind of projects going on, and so this year it's been really great. I've been asked by the NLA to sit on the housing forum and within that forum, a member of the GLA and a member of one local borough was articulating all the problems with, like temporary accommodation and some really sad, like appalling statistics about one in 23 kids being in temporary accommodation in London and how much money local authorities and the GLA are having to spend every year on temporary housing and as a mum of two small boys like one in 23 like I can't get past. That genuinely made me not sleep one night, and so what I can do is I can come to work and I've got people that understand TA.

Speaker 3:

They work with the local authorities, and so all I have to do is have two conversations and suddenly we've got like a little side hustle temporary accommodation working group going that are looking at different ways of funding temporary accommodation, how that could work in real life, like what that could look like, where the funds would come from, where the land is, who's got a structure that works, and there's like lots of them out there and like suddenly, like you can kind of find a solution for a topic that doesn't really come up in very many meetings, and I think actually it's it's incremental things and like, whilst I can't, there's not much like you can do a bit as one person, but it like it takes an army, doesn't it? And I think what you do have is a really willing army in this building and a proactive army that are solution driven and pretty focused and genuinely like good people. So I think for me it's. I think, as my role evolves and as my career evolves, I think I'm actually more excited about what, what we can do going forward, rather than what's been achieved to date, cause I think, as you can, I can have more of those strategic conversations now that I've evolved in my career than probably like we could have done when we were met, when we just had to get, had to get on with the job.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, no, no exactly.

Speaker 2:

And, as you say, I think being involved in those conversations for for an organisation like Savills, but also for you in the senior position that you hold with entities like the NLA and and others, is is is great and it's really important and and so so, and so how do you see some of the drivers behind affordability of housing or lack of supply of housing, and do you have a view on kind of how we can help those things along? As you say, there's never one solution to these and we can't as one company or one organisation look to solve them, but in terms of the intention and the work that we're doing day-to-day on development projects, strategic projects, um, I mean so many layers of challenge at the moment within residential development in particular.

Speaker 3:

Um, I think what is apparent is that there's. What we find is like there's not much. There's not many landing spaces where people can talk about the same like about the issues in a space quite kind of freely, because actually no one's alone, everyone's having the same challenges on nearly every development site. But what can happen is you feel like you're the only one dealing with that problem, when it's just your company sort of looking at your portfolio, and actually no, it's not. So I think what we've done this year is knowing that there's problems, like we've created spaces and forums for our clients like me, and we've done quite a few sessions in our boardroom of just literally like open conversation, like what are the challenges facing you at the moment? Like what is keeping you awake at night. And I think the more that we like, the more we understand and learn what the challenges are, which are broad ranging, everything from regulatory change and like gateway approvals to lack of registered providers, taking section 106 packages, um, to the inability to access, like grant funding, to delayed planning review and let alone like exit into the market and there's like whether you're looking for a forward fund or new home sales, like that market has been definitely challenged for a while. So, and then you layer on all the other stuff like interest rates and geopolitical issues that's causing huge like inflation to construction costs, and the fact that you've then got contractors in a challenging situation as well. I mean, there are just so there's so many things. It's like not one. So I think all what we can, what we can do like as a business, is provide some of that landing space, like take in that knowledge share, and then I think what we, what we can then do, is almost act as a bit of a bridge and particularly be the private sector in the public sector, because we have clients on both sides, copious clients on both sides. Um, we've got so much shared intel across both parts. Is that?

Speaker 3:

Actually we're quite passionate that like going forward, like it is partnership, like partnership and shared solutions, like and it's every like it's so it's annoying to say, but like every site needs a different solution, but the only way that we're going to get there is by having like grown-up conversations and like collaborating together to find that solution. Um, and so that's what we've been kind of working on this year we've been. We have been talking a lot, we've done a lot with lots of different house builders and private sector clients and we've been doing a huge lot with varying different like political stakeholders. Um, we're really excited to be working with places for london as their real estate partner and that's giving us like a another lens that we kind of see and understand like different pushes on pools in terms of the approach to development. So I think it's a, it's a continue.

Speaker 3:

I think it all comes back to like communication and trust and conversation, I think, and technical solutions can be found, but you can't find the solution until you know what, like the root cause is. And I think that is all about sort of everyone coming together to find a way through, because so much has changed to impact the development sector. But it's got to be a shared voice, I think, at this point to find the solution yeah, particularly when, um when projects are so long term.

Speaker 2:

They're um, you know, as you you mentioned, you know, kings cross or others. They're multi, multi-decade, even multi-generational projects and yeah, exactly, and um, and trying to sort of create some kind of consensus and sort of shared values, some shared vision that can hopefully endure different changes or different wins from the market or politics or whatever it might be. Is is a super interesting space to to be in, um, I think, but not without its challenges, is it?

Speaker 2:

but but if we kind of like um, willfully, kind of like park some of the, the macroeconomic challenges that we can't kind of affect, if we kind of like close our eyes and think about okay, well, you know the vision for for these types of places that that you are working on, that you're spending your time on, um, do you have a feel for what that that vision is?

Speaker 3:

on, like on the big projects, yeah, I do think, um, I do think nearly every project has quite a clear vision of what it is that they want to achieve. I think that that has been around, for I would say I think the importance of vision, I think like really landed probably like somewhere between like five to eight years ago, I think, to get that kind of buy-in and get that like, get that shared view and that shared vision. And so I think, on major projects, it's quite difficult to it's quite difficult even to just get like your technical team on board without like that kind of overarching, like goal seek and shared commitment that you've got together. I think what the difficulty is is defining what that is, and, um, I think there's sometimes like a tendency to think that it has to be like very specific or very prescriptive um, but actually it doesn't really like it doesn't need to be like that at all. And, um, I think working with lots of different client types, it's quite, it's quite interesting when you like hear all people's different views on what that is.

Speaker 3:

Um, I loved working with Grosvenor on their project down in Bermondsey, um, and they're so, they're so interesting cause it's a great estate and they take a really long, like long strategic view view there and actually like one of the overarching ambitions there was just that the biscuit factory was a place for everyone, particularly the local community, and it was for, like local generations to kind of stay and live within bermondsey and I just think that's like that was like that was such a great like thematic because there's lots of like housing estates in the daytime and they said they want the children of like the people that are already living there to like be in the new buildings on their site and like everyone can just stay in the same area, and I just think that is so simple but what a great ambition, yeah, and so it doesn't need to be complicated no, and often a lot of the best visions aren't because they're.

Speaker 2:

They're about, as you say, some of those emotive things that we all want for ourselves or families, or our parents, or whatever it is. So maybe I'm gonna, I'm gonna push you on this. So so for you personally, like, as opposed to your clients, other things. If you were to think about you know the london that you love and for your boys growing up and as a kind of that framing, maybe you know, if you look back in 20, 30 years at the place that they're living in, what would that place have?

Speaker 3:

you know the components of that place, what would it be like, what it feel like that you would think for your boys it's a nice place to live so I think it's so interesting, like I think, and I think it's so interesting, like I think, and I think it's actually quite funny where I've ended up living. So I think I think it's about creating like your village, and I think that for me, is what it keeps coming back to. They say it takes like a village to raise a family Like, and it really does Like you need backup, like a lot frequently. And neither I or my partner have family in London, like what I mean in terms terms of parents. I do have a sister, um, but she for a long time was living in Hackney and we're in East, in West London, so that was basically like living in a different city, to be honest with you, um, but actually recently she's moved really close to where we are and it's absolutely game-changing, um, but I think we've we've landed in Ealing and, um, I love it so much there and what I think I, what I've realized, is that we there's a lot of people like us there, so there's not kind of immediate family on your doorstep.

Speaker 3:

So, actually, like, school is really important because that's where you meet other people that you trust and if you are running late from work, someone can pick your kid up, kid up and, um, if you have like a babysitting nightmare, like you've got a safe next door but one neighbor that will be able to like help you out, um, we moved like literally two weeks before covid and we went into lockdown, um, and there's an elderly couple over our road and he was born in the house and he's 92 now and he's like been there forever and I think so we've got beautiful parks, like we've got a kind of mixed vibe high street but like loads of italians live in ealing. So we've got amazing food, like we've got excellent coffee, excellent pasta, excellent, excellent pizza. But I think what I think more than anything is it's safe, it's really safe. And I think that for me is like is quite a big theme and quite a big topic.

Speaker 3:

And I think raising for me, like raising children in London, like for me, like your primary objective as a parent isn't it is to have them safe. And so I think for me, like your primary objective as a parent isn't it is to have them safe. And so I think for me, like London, like successful London, is actually like that people have that freedom to feel safe. But I think that in itself, I don't know if I was, like, if I was in charge, like that would be a great objective that I would have is that people are free to feel safe and enjoy our city, and so I think the village concept for me works, and I think all of these big projects that I work in we're building villages or building towns, like that's what we're doing, um, and there are just fundamental component parts that work in order to do that, and so it's a secret, it's not that, it's not that hard, but you do have to get it right. I'm never gonna get any work again.

Speaker 2:

I'm like sophie. Thank you very much for your time. It's really really great to speak to you and, um, yeah, love everything you're doing and I love working with you, so it's great thanks tom, thanks so much for having me on this.

Speaker 3:

Love your podcast. As you know, I'm super proud of everything that you're doing.

Speaker 1:

Thank, you for having me. Thank you, thank you for listening to the grow places podcast. For more information, visit growplacescom and follow us at. We grow places across all social channels. See you next time.