Grow Places

GP 42: What Really Affects Quality of Life? with Adam Hinds of LifeProven

• Grow Places • Season 1 • Episode 42

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What if we told you that the biggest driver of quality of life in a building isn’t space, location, or sleek design – but how connected people feel to each other?

In this thought-provoking episode of the Grow Places Podcast, Tom Larsson sits down with Adam Hinds, co-founder of LifeProven, to unpack what truly makes a place thrive. From ESG’s misunderstood reputation to surprising data on mental well-being in housing, this is a deep dive into how buildings influence lives – and how the real estate sector is only just beginning to catch up.

Adam shares the real reason LifeProven was born (hint: it started with a very awkward question from a university client), and how their pioneering approach is shifting decision-making for investors, developers, and policymakers alike.

Expect insight, humanity, and a few well-earned reality checks – plus a vision for the kind of places we should be creating, and what happens when data meets empathy at scale.

You’ll learn:

  • Why the most powerful ESG investors aren’t backing down
  • What “quality of life” really means – and how to measure it
  • How dense urban living can still be deeply human
  • Why clutter causes anxiety (and how to design that out)
  • The design decisions that really matter – and the ones that don’t

If you care about the future of cities, real estate, or just want to know how your environment shapes your wellbeing – this one’s for you.

Learn more at growplaces.com

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the Grow Places podcast, where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth and place Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, tom Larson.

Speaker 2:

Adam, thanks for your time today. Thank you for bearing with me as we set up in this room. It's all good Fellow podcast host and you know we all go about things in different ways and this is my kind of ad hoc way of setting the cameras up. So thank you for bearing with me today.

Speaker 3:

No, we're well accustomed to technical glitches. Yeah, exactly, it happens to the best of us, but it's good and the listeners will never know, because I never introduced the podcast in that way.

Speaker 2:

It's all good. So I'm really excited to have this conversation with you today. The work that you do at Life Proven is amazing and I'm keen to kind of lift the cover on that a little bit why you do what you do. But firstly, I'm really intrigued. When we were filling time during this setup today, you said you're in a very exclusive club in terms of a co-working space which is only for social impacts companies and entrepreneurs, any impact focused business, exactly so. So what makes life proven an impact focused business and why do you think you got through the door there?

Speaker 3:

big question. So I think inherently that is the founding of our company is is to have a positive impact. So we come from a background focused predominantly on environmental impact. Having a positive impact there, having a positive impact from a budgets and make things happen a lot quicker and you're not pushing a boulder uphill anymore, You're pushing on open doors. When those three things align, things just get approved and move through a lot quicker because everyone through the sort of value chain is getting some sort of benefit.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so how do you see that kind of those different actors, those different roles within the kind of real estate chain? And because your model is really interesting insofar as you are across that, aren't you your clients? Your partners are developers, investors and every kind of element within the supply chain. So do you have a similar conversation with your clients, with your partners at those different levels?

Speaker 3:

Absolutely, and I'm just thinking how best to frame this.

Speaker 3:

So I think that's one of the most misunderstood and misappreciated elements of the real estate industry is how different layers think and operate and what the risks and opportunities for them are. And so a simple example the risks for a contractor and sustainability risks and impact whether that's a risk or an opportunity for a contractor is very, very different to a pension fund. Who's going to be the end owner of that? Their perspectives are completely different. Their involvement and the duration of their involvement in that project is going to be very, very different. One might be there for two years, one's going to be there for 60 years. So the more layers that we can understand what is important, what's not, what's a risk, what's an opportunity over a very long timeframe helps us better to communicate between the layers and basically connect and position things so everyone is clear as to why we're making certain design or operational decisions or investment decisions, and that can be communicated to each layer in a much more direct, succinct and transparent way to then hopefully move people through quicker.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, interesting.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think, like ESG, sustainability, impact I think those words just confuse people as well. Like having, and it probably means different things to different people. Like if you ask someone what does ESG mean and you ask someone else what does ESG mean, you'll probably get two different definitions, and that is also a challenge. So just trying to remove that from the sort of narrative to come to bring everyone back to what is the common thread of what we're trying to achieve and then bringing that to really really simple language so people understand what our objective is from an environmental or a social or financial perspective. And how will that design and operational strategy achieve that?

Speaker 2:

and what part does that particular stakeholder play in that journey, whether it's they're involved for a month, six months or 30 years so do you have a um, a kind of like a life proven version of um, esg, like kind of your, your kind of, whether it's purpose or method or kind of because, because, as you say, you're, you're, you're part kind of responding to the various actors within the supply chain, like the brief that the client gives you.

Speaker 2:

But I'm sure a large part of it is actually kind of educating or moving things on and interested in kind of like you know for you as a business and also for you personally, kind of like what that means to you, what that means to you as a company, and and therefore, what do you try and promote on the relationships you have?

Speaker 3:

yeah, that's a that's a really good question, actually, and and interestingly, that is evolving constantly that, that framework or our approach and our methodology behind it. Because if you think, uh, if we, if we ignore esg for respect for a second and we go globally, you've got at any one point. There are macro challenges that are happening constantly. So you've got things like climate change, resource shortages, social inequalities, and those things are happening globally at all times. And then underneath that, you then have micro challenges which would then be based on, I suppose, probably your geographical location.

Speaker 3:

So, for example, climate change in the UK, the potential impacts of that are different to climate change in the Middle East or in Africa, as a simple example, and how the government and also large institutions adapt their behaviours and how they set laws, how they set regulations, is obviously very different depending on where you are.

Speaker 3:

So you have to understand the macro what's going on globally and if you've got an international or global portfolio or you're operating globally, you then have to watch many different balls at the micro level, because laws regulations can change in different geographical locations and can change with changes in politicians who get appointed like on a dime and that can have significant regulatory risks or issues with your portfolio that you have to navigate very, very quickly.

Speaker 3:

Um then, so within that layer of the micro challenges, you've obviously got laws, regulations and market demands. So tenants, occupants, consumers want certain things, and their behaviours and interests in what they want to buy, what they want to rent, is different everywhere in the world. So being very attuned to that in terms of where you are, what you're providing and how that then influences what environmental performance is, social performance or governance which could be classed as resilience for being future-proof can shift and change. But if you boil it right down to simple definitions, we can break it down into the tiny, tiny categories if you really want to, but that is in a macro setting, is how we sort of approach it, and you've got to be very attuned to what's changing and shifting constantly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, no, super interesting and and so you know we're sat in London today, you know we're both based here or our businesses are based here. But, as you said, that that macro lens and also that international client base you have, I think, in London, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly, we like to think that our industry is, you know, at the forefront, is kind of doing things really well and, as I say, sometimes that's the case, but other times we can definitely learn from other places, other cultures, other businesses, parts of the world. No-transcript.

Speaker 3:

Really good question.

Speaker 3:

So, from my own personal perspective, where I am curious and most interested is the investors that have identified environmental and social performance as a commercial advantage and a commercial opportunity and they have been able to leverage that to having a commercial advantage.

Speaker 3:

Is a significant growth area and I would say a very few investor developers have unlocked that fully say a very few investor developers have unlocked that fully and one of our clients, blackrock I would say they are obviously the largest asset manager in the world.

Speaker 3:

They have very smart, intellectual people in the team and, as a result, they have a very sophisticated understanding of how to leverage environmental and social activities to then have a commercial outcome. And, as we mentioned at the beginning, when you can align environmental, social and financial outcomes, it's a win-win-win and effectively you are creating a more resilient, high-performing asset. So I would say companies like BlackRock would be a business to watch and understand how they're positioning their communications externally with their investors, but then also internally what they're doing from a development perspective, and they're obviously invested in loads and loads of different things. We only work on a real estate capacity for them, but from them, even with the changing winds in America around ESG and that being quite politicised internally, nothing has changed from them. They've been absolutely steadfast in their approach that they view environmental performance and social performance as fundamental to their long-term financial outcomes.

Speaker 2:

Interesting, yeah, and obviously you don't need to give too much away. But what would be their, their kind of key performance indicators or kind of the things that that put the meat on the bones of that? You know that conviction because, as you say, there is, there is um shifting sands globe globally at the moment and it and it would offer the likes of black rock. You know some of these bigger entities like if they wanted, you know the ability to kind of move backwards or sideways if they, if they wanted, but what do you think almost for them is that kind of underwrite, if you want to use that kind of terminology for for this meaning?

Speaker 3:

why are they positioning that way, or what is the evidence to say that they've achieved it? Which?

Speaker 2:

one, no, I well, I think both would be interesting, but I was thinking actually the former yeah okay.

Speaker 3:

So I would say there's an element of thematic investment which, for those listeners who haven't come across that it's basically it's a trend-based investing.

Speaker 3:

So you're looking at where the and you're looking and skating to where the puck is moving to, not where it is now, and they're effectively looking at what is happening globally. What are the challenges globally? Where is money moving and shifting to globally? What are the risks, opportunities, and that's where they're positioning for long-term holds. Now, I think where some people and commentators get ESG investment and a green premium or a brown discount wrong is they talk about it at a high level, but everyone has different investment parameters and that's where it becomes unstuck. So you've got ESG. So a simple example would be you talk about ESG investing as a green premium, but are you talking about real estate or are you talking about equities? And within equities, what metric or framework are you aligning that to? Is it MSCI? And then, what is the validity of that? And that is wholly different to the ESG performance of an individual building. Right, if you imagine it in the simplest form of an individual building, it's. How does that building influence the planet in its operation and how does the planet influence it in terms of is it in a flood zone? Could it be flooded and then have an insurability incident? So how resilient is it? How much is it negatively or positively impacting the planet and how resilient is it to the environment changing and impacting its performance? Shift to socially how is that building influencing the health, well-being and quality of life and satisfaction of its occupants? So do people actually want to go there and spend their time there? Do people want to buy there? Do people want to rent there? If yes, you're then going to have an asset that has higher demand than you have supply, because people want to spend their time there. That, inherently, is a better quality asset than something where people go. I don't want to spend any time there because it makes me sad being in that room. You then have less demand than supply. So then you've got a financial issue.

Speaker 3:

And then, financially, where I think the domino has fallen quite heavily in the favor of ESG or sustainable investing is the financial piece where we're now starting to get ESG or sustainability linked bonds and sustainability linked loans that offer discounted debt facilities and sometimes equity. So a simple example is a company called Puma Property Finance. Simple example is we, a company called puma property finance, they will offer up to a one percent discount on development finance for developers who will achieve a certain environmental standard, and a one percent on a hundred million pound loan is a material financial benefit. Right, and if that asset can also navigate through regulatory change because it's got better standards, better quality, it is positive in terms of its environmental impact, it isn't going to be impacted by climate change and it provides a service and a design that actually improves people's health, their well-being, their quality of life, so they want to spend time there people's health, their wellbeing, their quality of life so they want to spend time there. You've got three pillars all lined up for a long-term resilient asset which is very investable and it's also very desirable from a tenant or an occupant's perspective.

Speaker 3:

So we specialise in, I suppose, helping the largest investors in the world and also the most innovative investors to create leading, very sustainable, best in class resilient real estate assets. That's literally why we exist and the reason why we focus on the largest is because, coming back to your first question, that is where we can have the greatest material benefit and impact on the world and the reason why we then focus on developers who might be much, much smaller, who are doing something that's very innovative from a sustainability perspective is because we can take those learnings and integrate that back into the large portfolios and we can use that as well to educate the rest of industry about how we could be doing things better. And if we can help accelerate that movement towards better understanding and an evolution of knowledge sharing, and then if the whole market can move towards that direction, then everyone, from our perspective, will be a winner. The planet will be better, people will be happier and healthier and financially more prosperous did that answer your question?

Speaker 2:

yeah, no, totally, and um, you know, you have something.

Speaker 2:

I really admire about you, um, adam, is we? We did a podcast where I was a guest on on your podcast. Yeah, um, I listened back to it two or three times just because you put. You naturally have a very, very good way of just breaking things down and dissecting things into like a really kind of, um, logical and understandable, like step-by-step process, and I want to say thank you for that because it was, it was great like listening. Thank you, because I have a tendency to sort of speak in maybe slightly.

Speaker 2:

You know more abstract concepts or bigger picture concepts, and it was just like okay, so what you're saying, what you mean is bang, bang, bang, bang bang, and that was just like so valuable. I think you did that with that example there, and so if I ask you then to kind of maybe go into that kind of like that visionary space, that kind of thought provoking space, everything you know from the industry, everything you know, you described in that example what big entities like BlackRock are looking at, what development regeneration companies like us are doing and what people on the street communities really need, um, and and you now have the full reins to to create a environment that really improves people's quality of life and kind of delivers some of these um these social um environmental benefits that we're talking about.

Speaker 2:

You know what does that place look like, what does it feel like, how is it governed? Kind of, do you have a? You must have a sense from doing all this work in the process, what that should be, and I'm just really intrigued to know what you think about that Can.

Speaker 3:

I go on a complete tangent here and I'm going to explain the origin of our business and then how that has evolved to then answer your question. Yeah, go on then. So we historically so my background, is a development manager previously and my business partner, jordan. He's a quantity surveyor, stroke project director and the founding of our business. We used to run a student. We used to work for a London-based boutique developer doing sort of new build and regeneration schemes across the UK and through one of the projects we were running, a scheme in Bristol in the Redcliffe quarter which we were negotiating a long lease through the development phase to a local university and through that negotiation phase the university started asking us questions about the design. So the design brief from our client, which was our company, was I want as many units in as you can get, as small as possible to cram them in. And at that point we didn't know anything about environmental, social governance, resilience, future proofing. We just thought yep makes sense from a business case. So we've evolved that design.

Speaker 3:

The university started who are taking a long lease for 25 years, have start and and from their perspective. And this is where we got things wrong. We didn't appreciate their perspective started. Uh, they had quite negative press and media and some very significant social challenges around mental health and stress, anxiety and and suicide for their students. And from a student's perspective, they obviously are in a very transformative period in their life, going from living at home at school to new social networks, new city, new, everything, and that can be a very challenging time everything and that can be a very challenging time.

Speaker 3:

Through that period, the university asked us what design? How does this building perform socially? How will it impact the health and well-being and quality of life of our students? And if we wanted to improve it, what design element should we change? And that was the first time anyone had asked us. As a development manager and a quantity surveyor and a project director, I have no idea how it's going to perform from a mental well-being and mental health perspective. So we then asked the design team, who were a very experienced design team, and they came back and said we have no idea. And we said, well, what things could we change to improve it? And then the feedback was we could change the carpet colours from white to cream or the wall colours, or we could maybe change the bathroom layout and we asked, well, what benefit would that have? We don't know.

Speaker 3:

And it was at that point where we realised there was a fundamental misunderstanding for how design and operation of an asset actually influences both the environment and socially over its full life cycle. And unfortunately for design teams and contractors, they will design a building and then that building will operate, but as soon as it hits practical completion they're onto the next scheme and there is 60 plus years, 70, 80 plus years of operational data that, from our perspective, should be being fed back to the original designers and the original contractor team to help inform them. So their knowledge is getting better. So every building they design, they're learning from the operational outcomes of all the historic projects that they've done and that is like gold dust having that information. So at that point that was sort of when when Jordan and I decided to found the business and we started from a very humble position of we literally know nothing. We know the numbers, but the numbers didn't add up because as soon as someone raised a social question that then caught, we couldn't negotiate the deal which underwrote the whole scheme, couldn't negotiate the deal which underwrote the whole scheme. So that was a very good example of a social issue challenge impacting the financial viability of the scheme, and at that time we didn't have the tools to be able to navigate that situation. So we then spent five years and our founding thesis of our business was effectively the UK is a very small landmass.

Speaker 3:

Geographically it's tiny in comparison to its population. The population is going to grow. Typically, what happens is urban sprawl. The cities will go out, out out. We will then be taking up agricultural land which grows the food to feed the people. If we're taking up more agricultural land which is already stressed, and our food production in the uk is limited we're going to get to a tipping point that we've scaled too far out. We can't actually grow food and have green spaces to support the people on the landmass. What then happens? Because we can't expand the boundaries of the uk, and it was at that point we then realized okay, for this to actually be scalable and to protect and preserve the uk planet, health, well-being, all of that we're going to have to build more densely. We're going to have to build in and up things that are located next to key transport amenities so people don't necessarily need to use cars anymore because they're within walking distance to keep train stations and if they can have all of their retails effectively.

Speaker 3:

The 15 minute walkable city concept okay, but through our research and and basically unpicking our own curiosities, we identified that if you build small spaces, termed shoebox, that there's a social impact. People have well, have wellbeing outcomes and they don't like living in a box. So we then came to another sort of financial pinch point that we said well, from an environmental perspective, we have to build more densely, more efficiently in existing urban areas to then get use of existing retail, existing amenities, existing transport infrastructure, without building new on green space. But we have to build smaller, which then impacts the social element. So then people are less happy in that building and then therefore they're probably not going to want to pay for those buildings. And then we haven't balanced ES and the financial. So then we looked at okay, what do we need to do in those spaces to then make people happier and healthier, to improve their quality of life? Because if we can achieve that in any particular space, then that's going to be desirable, demand will increase, they'll be happy to pay more whether they buy it or rent it, because they're happier and want to stay longer.

Speaker 3:

And then we've also connected the environmental piece, and that was the founding question of our business and the way we have approached it as a company is we don't know the answer. I don't as an individual, I don't know, but what we do know is that there are millions of buildings and everyone has a viewpoint and a perspective that is unique to them. So we should go out and ask them about their perspective and their space and what influences them, and use robust data science to collect that information. And when we can track and analyze that across tens of thousands of people, we can pull very strong insights about what is impacting their physical health, their mental well-being. Is it design related? Is it operationally? Is it management? Is it location? What are the key trends that result in higher health, well-being and quality of life outcomes? Why is one building or one area better than another? And that was really the founding point of our company.

Speaker 3:

So we then founded a platform called the Real Estate Well-Being Metric with King's College London, and the whole premise of that was we don't know, because we aren't everyone, but if we can give everyone a voice to share their experiences from their, how their space influences them in their daily life, and we compile all of those together, we're going to have a very robust data platform to make better informed decisions from, and we can share that, that information, transparently so from a social perspective. That was always our founding and what just some very helpful insights to which was some of the things that took us by surprise from that data, and still does, is out of curiosity, what do you think the number one design attribute most strongly associated with a better quality of life in a building is what people say, or what do I think it is. What do think as in what do you think it? It came back as um just complete curiosity.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think people would say say the the quality of the outdoor space.

Speaker 3:

Actually, very, yeah, very interesting so it actually came back is their. The number one most strongly associated design attribute for better quality of life was their social connection to people in the space, in the building and in their local community, and the higher their level of social connection, the better their quality of life outcomes were, which for us, was like fascinating that it's not necessarily always about a design. It's about how connected they feel to people and how connected they then feel to a local community, and that comes back to why we also were really keen to have you on the podcast, because I know that's a founding element of your business is about improving quality of life for people. The second layer which comes back, which was the second design attribute, which is probably something that you would expect, was the access to natural daylight. To the higher you access natural daylight, obvious better health, well-being, quality of life outcomes were. So basically, what we did is we ranked all of them in order and things that we probably thought would have been higher, like the amount of space you've got, weren't actually that strongly associated. They were very, very low down the list.

Speaker 3:

But what things were higher in a residential setting was how much storage someone has, and then you start to connect dots to go yeah, if they don't have storage, they put stuff everywhere which creates clutter.

Speaker 3:

Clutter creates anxiety, anxiety builds over time, that then causes mental health issues and then that then reduces their satisfaction in a space. So that's how we've approached it is we don't rely on what we think, it's what is the data telling us, what does other scientific research tell us around things like how much exercise should we be having? What should our diet be to optimize our physical and mental health? And pulling in as much data and insight and then tracking, okay, across this, our portfolio how active are our residents or our tenants? Are they meeting the guidelines, yes or no? And if they're not, is there a reason why? And is there something we can do or facilitate to help them start achieving that? And it's just adding in all these tiny layers of information to help you and the investor, investment manager, asset manager, development manager, make better informed decisions based on people's behavioral outcomes. And I've probably gone on a massive tangent there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, you yeah, yes and no, because you're kind of you're kind of touching on some really like fundamental principles there, which I think is stuff that we firmly align with as well it's like you know, this notion that um any one, uh company or actor kind of has the definitive vision about a place Um.

Speaker 2:

I think is is is fundamentally wrong, and and the model that you're describing challenges that and um, I think that that's that's a great kind of insight into that and um, and also, as you say, kind of, actually, when you speak to people, the things that we think they probably value about places is actually not necessarily the things that that that we would put value on, yeah, um and so so, within all of that, within all that context, um, uh, you've kind of touched on some of the principles there, but, like this imaginary neighborhood that we're creating in this conversation, um, those principles of quality of life, those components of quality of life that that the neighborhood should, you know, most likely kind of exhibit that. What from all of your kind of data inputs from from the top down, from the bottom up, kind of, you know, what do you do you at life proven, do you kind of group those? Do you kind of um, have a kind of quality of life metric in any sense or kind of? Maybe you could kind of talk about that and um yeah, resolve that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, sure. So one of our sort of founding services, which has evolved over time, is a platform called the real estate well-being metric, so similar to a quality of life. Yeah, so it's effectively a user survey, so we distribute that to occupants, residents, tenants, um building, uh, people who work in in buildings. So if you've got reception staff etc. And we're trying to get as many insights from them from their specific perspective and their interaction with that building as possible, and the survey split into key sections. So we're asking socio-demographic information about them as an individual how much time they spend in the space, what they do in the space, what their background is, how they travel to and from the building that sort of information. We're asking them how they rate the design, so how much natural daylight, their thermal comfort, their views, their access to green space, how they rate it as their perception. We're asking them questions around the building management, so maintenance, security, how safe they feel, those sorts of things. And then also about their health and well-being, which is the fundamental piece that connects all of the dots together. So we're asking them questions about how active they are, how happy they feel, and we're using scientific or internationally validated metrics for health, well-being and quality of life. To do that, then when we pull that data in, we're obviously tracking where that information is coming from. And then, when we're pooling information, we can then start to compare one building versus another or one portfolio versus another, or one region versus another, or apartments versus houses, or a commercial unit versus retail or industrial, and that is where the value comes from in the comparison against that versus UK or global averages in terms of health, well-being, quality of life. And that's where I think which is the part of our name, proven life proven is we are using data to facilitate and evidence our decision-making and support our decision-making.

Speaker 3:

It's not coming from we think it's this data is saying this and we use that to then coming back to the thematic investment point, we use trends and research and data to support our decisions, because we don't have all the answers, but that if, by following this approach, we can gather as much intel as we possibly can, to hopefully then make better informed decisions.

Speaker 3:

And the benefit of this is that survey we issue every single year to each asset. And what is the most valuable thing from that is we can baseline a building and year on year, as we make incremental changes, whether they're we make a design change to the building or an operational change to the building, or even something as small as the way we engage occupants and feed information back to them about what's happening to make them feel more connected. We can actually track and see over time their health and well-being changes and also their satisfaction with the building change. So we can break that down into very trackable KPIs year on year and when you're tracking that over a 5, 10, 15, 20 year period, it's quite rewarding to see shifts and improvements in people's quality of life outcomes and their satisfaction with where they live or work as a result of capturing their insights and perceptions and feeding that back to them to then make more informed improvements to that portfolio to help them based on what they've told you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, fascinating. So I'll use BlackRock in this example. Just because of the name, no opinion on that per se. Black rock in this example, yeah, just because of the name. Nothing, no opinion on that per se, but in this example. So if you had the most senior person from black rock that you deal with and you had them in a room with, um, an average individual resident or person who uses their, their buildings, use their spaces, you put them in chairs, like we are, and you kind of sat there sort of moderating or mediating a kind of conversation between them, how do you think that conversation would go? How do you feel? Do you feel like they would both be kind of having the same vision about the place or talking about it in the same way?

Speaker 3:

A hundred percent yes, and the reason why I say that is because the vision of the occupant is being fed back to BlackRock and they are using that information to make better design or operational decisions. Because they know if, coming back to the point we made before, if they can create that space to have a better experience, that occupant tenant is more likely to stay longer, which then means that supports and underwrites the financial performance of that asset long-term. So if we can continually adjust, adapt and evolve and improve an asset, even through its operational phase, if that person can stay longer and bring more people to the building, whether it's commercial, industrial, whatever it is residential, then that is underwriting the financial, the long-term financial performance of that asset yeah, yeah, no.

Speaker 2:

I think that that that is fundamental. You know, that model that you're doing, yeah, and it's such a you know, we see, uh, like the role of you know what, what, every, every element within the chain, but particularly the kind of middlemen entities, so the likes of Life.

Speaker 2:

Proven Great Places where you're not the ultimate money and you're not the ultimate occupier. There's such a responsibility. Isn't there in that to kind of yeah, to sort of to mediate in a really, you know, in a nice way between kind of like, what do people want? What are people's expectations of places? Um, how can we talk in in languages that are both kind of related to a financial report and related to a uh, conversation in a village hall or town hall? Like, how can we kind of have those kind of conversations?

Speaker 2:

And I think, the more that organizations do exactly what you're just describing, which is to to try and speak multiple languages, wear multiple hats whatever cliche you want to put on that and actually use real data, use real kind of conversation, real survey, real input and then feed that back to the front of the next project or the next operating cycle is so valuable and I it. If more entities and organizations you know did as you're describing, I think we'd have much better functioning places and, you know, uh, much better quality of life for people. So it's great, great, what you're doing on that front. Um, one, one kind of aspect about um I I'll call it ESG, call it um quality of life, whatever you want to call it, but it is kind of um affordability, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So so you know, in terms of uh, in terms of yeah in terms of like everyday life, affordability for people, yep, um, you know we're both of a similar kind of generation. You know, generation, different generations feel um the pinch, so to speak, quite a lot, um, you know, in different ways, at different times. Now, at the moment, obviously, someone who's a teenager, a 20 year old, will have struggles, sort of buying a house or often even cost of living, relative to their salary. Um, you speak, speak to my parents and they go well, you know, we didn't have it that easy. You know we had 15 interest rates, you know.

Speaker 2:

So every generation has their kind of economic environment to to live in. But I think, um, it's fair to say that inequality is a big thing, and particularly in dense urban cities that are attractive, like London or Tokyo or wherever it may be. So I'm always interested in how the kind of affordability piece kind of fits into ESG metrics, esg frameworks, esg reporting, and I think, yeah, I'd be interested to get your take on how you view affordability as whether it's its own thing, whether it's a component of quality of life, whether it's an output. How do you see that?

Speaker 3:

No, really interesting question. I'm going to connect to one of our previous podcast guests called Paul Clements-Hunt and he is the man who is known as coining the phrase ESG, so he invented it and coined it through the UN. So really, really fascinating guy. And on the podcast I didn't know this, but he explained to us that social inequality is the number one negative impact towards climate progress and environmental performance. And how he described that is in third world countries where social inequality is at its worst and you've got the highest levels of deprivation.

Speaker 3:

Trying to adjust their behaviours to be more sustainable is near impossible when they have very little resources available to them and when that challenge is magnified even larger when it's a very large percentage of the global population are in that bracket and that in itself, from a global perspective, is one of the world's biggest challenges. If we want to to have environmental progress, then we have to focus on social progress to have social equality. But then, if we're bringing that back to a uk perspective and looking specifically at a real estate perspective, obviously we know affordability is fundamentally linked to quality of life. You have less money to spend on good quality food or activities or social activities, to be socially connected or physical activity outcomes that are fundamental to underpinning a good quality of life and better well-being yeah, yeah, no fascinating um, so kind of stepping back from, um kind of almost stepping back from everything we've talked about.

Speaker 2:

yeah, zooming right out to you personally. Yeah, go on, you know you're clearly clearly like very purpose-driven in what you do. You kind of you know you've talked during this conversation about you know you work with the biggest entities in the world because that's the opportunity to have the biggest impact. Where does all that come from in you personally? Do you think you know, aside from the business, like, why does doing this motivate you? Why does operating at scale motivate you to to have that bigger impact? What? What's that emotional kind of reason and some of those deeper lying values for you?

Speaker 3:

oh, deep question. Yeah, yeah, yeah, promise I won't cry.

Speaker 3:

It's all right, we did say I'm not to be honest, I don't have that skill of Stephen Bartlett Breaking someone down into pieces Exactly yeah, yeah, no, um, I think a really short and average answer is because I can and I think personally I'm quite curious as an individual. I like to learn, I like to listen and be educated by other people and other people doing really inspiring things, people that are doing amazing things and pushing themselves because they see, maybe they have an inner belief themselves that they could be doing more and have a bigger impact and live a big life. Right, and I've probably been quite fortunate to be surrounded by quite influential figures through childhood, adolescence, etc. Who of people who live a big life? And I've always thought I think I'm capable of doing that and doing more. Why wouldn't I? And I think I'm very fortunate both with our clients they operate in a similar capacity that they are highly motivated individuals to be the best that they can be as individuals and as advisors and developers and investors.

Speaker 3:

And I think also internally in our business, that's been a very core, fundamental part of our recruitment and our culture is attracting other people who it's more than just a job for them, it's a way of life, in that they believe in using their skills to deliver more impact and selfishly, the more impact we've seen to deliver, the more success we've had back that people then want to work with you more because of the outcomes that you've delivered have been positive for them and others.

Speaker 3:

So there is obviously a commercial benefit from that and by if we can deliver a fantastic service and people have a great experience and that's everyone that we deal with beyond the person who pays us then I think it's a win-win-win and we get to pat ourselves on the back as we've done a good job for the planet, future generations, because that's obviously with me, with children is is a is a big driver, but also, um, yeah, we're capable of it. Why, why wouldn't we want to push that, to be as best that we can be and have the best impact that we can, both externally with clients, projects and their assets and their occupants, and also internally with our team?

Speaker 2:

yeah, absolutely, and um, it's very well said and you know so. So if you, you know, I know we don't necessarily like doing this but if you, if you project to being an old man, when your kids are a bit yeah, a bit older and they're in the world that you've helped to shape, you know what kind of hopes do you have for that kind of environment that they're living in, that quality of life that they're going to experience and and and kind of how we've got there through the work that we do?

Speaker 3:

well, now that is a big question. Um, what are you asking? What do I see the world looking like at that point, or what would I want it to be, or how, how, let's go for what you want it to be, because I think that's hopefully a nicer note.

Speaker 3:

Well, obviously not worse than what it is now, because if it is, then we've catastrophically failed as a generation to take what we've inherited and we've squandered such an amazing opportunity. And there's a YouTube video. It's like two, three minutes and it's called oh, I think it's called the Blue Dot. Have you seen it? Heard about it? I've heard about it. I haven't seen it Right. Okay, I posted it on my LinkedIn.

Speaker 3:

It was probably like two years ago and basically it's a perspective from an astronaut and he zoomed right out in the universe looking at this tiny little blue dot of, obviously, the earth from thousands and thousands of miles away I don't know how far, a long way and he was just. It's a. I don't know if it's a poem or like a very short story explaining how inconsequential the earth is. It's just a tiny little speck of nothing in nothing. And then, when you zoom in it, you come right down to your daily life and we think we're so meaningful and impactful and everything we're doing and which, like every, everyone, has the power and ability to shape and change the future, which is an amazing thing, and that's what hopefully drives a lot of people to have a positive impact. But I like to think that we, from a universal perspective, are just a tiny speck of dust. But we have been given such an amazing opportunity of life on a planet, in a universe and we need to not squander that. And when you look at how small the planet is and we've got a very small ozone layer protecting us from space you go geez we're really playing with fire here that if something goes wrong with that and we take a path that we shouldn't have, there's no coming back of fixing something like that.

Speaker 3:

So I like to think that in what we are doing and that was why so, just going back to sort of our founding of our business jordan and I first started doing, um, investments ourselves, and then we very quickly realized we were not going to have the impact and benefit on the planet by doing that because we were just too slow.

Speaker 3:

So then we changed tack and, coming from an advisory background, we went head first into where we can use our beliefs, our approach, to help advise the largest investors and investment managers and then, therefore, our advice can then have such larger positive benefits and impact because we're operating at a significantly greater scale and hopefully through that we're then creating an environment where, environmentally, the planet, ecosystem, biodiversity, animals, plants, etc.

Speaker 3:

All of that is preserved, at the very least, and we're not degrading it for our children's future and from a social perspective you would hope that equality is, or inequality is, going in the opposite direction than what it is today, and I suppose we we can only influence what we can influence right. We get a pretty short window on the planet to try and do that, and it takes a while to become good at anything, so you can only sort of pick very few shots to take, and this is ours. This is we're focusing on the real estate space because it's what we knew, what we loved and why we got into it was we like buildings and real estate and how people interface with that. And if we can leverage that to have some sort of positive benefits of hundreds or thousands of occupants through time and then that building operate over 60, 70, 80-plus year period and then continue to help people, then that's hopefully the best we can do.

Speaker 2:

Adam, thank you very much for your time. Thank you for having me. Fascinating. All the work you're doing is is is so good, so so well needed, and I really look forward to our businesses collaborating together in the future tom, been a pleasure.

Speaker 3:

Thank you for the podcast and the opportunity to chat to yourself and your lovely guests.

Speaker 1:

No worries, cheers man thank you for listening to the grow places podcast. For more, visit growplacescom and follow us at. We Grow Places across all social channels. See you next time.