Grow Places
Welcome to the Grow Places podcast where we explore the virtuous circle of people growth and place.
Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our Founder, Tom Larsson. These short conversations with industry leaders and community figures share insights on the built environment and open up about their purpose and what drives them on a personal level.
Thank you for listening. For more information please visit our website; www.growplaces.com and connect with us @WeGrowPlaces across all social channels.
We cover topics such as real estate, property development, place, urban design, architecture, social value, sustainability, community, technology, diversity, philanthropy, landscape design, public realm, cities, urban development, people, neighbourhoods, anthropology, sociology, geography, culture, circular economy, whole life carbon, affordability, business models, innovation, impact, futurism, mindset, leadership, mentorship, wellbeing.
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Grow Places
GP 38: Pleasure in The Simple Things: with Emily Wright of CREtech
In this episode of the Grow Places Podcast, host Tom Larsson sits down with journalist and CREtech's Head of Content, Emily Wright, to explore the evolving narratives around real estate, design, and the human experience of place.
Emily shares insights from her 20-year career in the industry, reflecting on how conversations around well-being, sustainability, and placemaking have shifted from niche concerns to mainstream priorities. She discusses the power of human-centred design, the changing role of public vs. private space, and the industry’s responsibility to create places that feel truly lived-in, informal, and adaptable.
From Helsinki’s Oodi Library to the Nordic sauna culture, Emily and Tom discuss the importance of everyday joy, the flexibility of great places, and how the best environments are often the most unfinished. They also touch on how profit and purpose can coexist and why commentary on the built world matters more than ever.
🎧 Tune in for an inspiring conversation about the future of places, the impact of design, and the pleasure in the simple things.
www.growplaces.com/podcast
Hello and welcome to the Grow Places podcast, where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth and place Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, Tom Larson.
Speaker 2:Emily hi, Hello, how are you? I'm really good. Thanks, Really good. Thank you very much for joining me today.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 2:We're in this lovely space, nice and relaxed um, it feels perfect for a really good conversation oh well, let's, let's see what happens as an unwell child not far from here so let's see, let's see how we get on, but yeah, no, it's lovely to see you that's good. Well, everyday life is what we're really interested in on this platform, so oh, that's very useful then exactly, exactly and um, thanks for humoring me today in terms of this conversation.
Speaker 2:You know, I know you're used to speaking to the likes of Dan Doctoroff and Bianca Ingalls and many other renowned people from around the world, and so, yeah, it'd be great to learn your perspective on those conversations, speaking to them, your unique position within the industry as well. But before we dive into it, why don't you give everyone a bit of an introduction to yourself?
Speaker 3:Oh, do you know, that is the hardest question, isn't it? Of all the questions? And I'm so used to asking the questions and I always think well, that's the easy one, but it's not. Is it to have to suddenly think, well, who am I, what do I do?
Speaker 3:So I'm Emily Wright and I'm a real estate journalist, focusing on well across the sector but design, architecture, traditional real estate as well and I've always had a very global scope. I was an EG for 12 years and now I split my time, so I'm a freelance journalist for part of my time and I've moved towards publications like Wallpaper, design, the Spaces, so really taking on a bit more of that architectural and design content. I'm also head of content at Cretec, which is a New York based conference company for the built world, really focusing on innovation and sustainability. And that wasn't enough, honestly, the number of email addresses I have. I launched a sub stack think when was that gosh?
Speaker 3:June, june last year called well placed which is focused on human-centered design, and I did that because that's where my passion lies and I really wanted an outlet to just focus on human-centered design, and we'll come on to this, but it's interesting because I did that in June last year and thought, well, this is going to be such a great outlet, but but it's almost like since then, in the past six months, the focus on human-centred design more generally has really picked up, which is fantastic in many ways. So it's an interesting one, because it sort of feels like that was going to be going off into, like the area of interest that was maybe slightly off from the mainstream, and it's coming into the mainstream so quickly, which is which is what we all want. So so that's it.
Speaker 2:There you go yeah, yeah, amazing, um. So I always like to sort of zone in start with passion and purpose and so maybe, maybe, let's start there then and we can sort of zoom out, so so. So why do you feel that that what you're doing at well placed is is so purposeful for you?
Speaker 3:Well, you know, having been a journalist in this space for over 20, oh my God, is it over 20? Just about 20 years you get such an amazing view of this sector, of this industry, and it's such. It's an industry that touches so many people. It's really interesting. So I was speaking to someone the other day and they said oh, I suppose the thing about writing about real estate is that it's an industry that touches so many people. It's really interesting. So I was speaking to someone the other day and they said um, oh, I suppose the thing about writing about real estate is that it's quite niche. And I and I said, well, no, it might, it might seem like that, but do you live in a building? Do you work in a building? Do you work travel through cities, do you like? It's not niche at all. It touches absolutely everything.
Speaker 3:Um, and then, looking at that industry over the past 20 years, right from the start I'd always thought and this is interesting because it shows how much the industry has changed right from the start I thought it doesn't. It's amazing industry, but it doesn't make much sense that the end user is so often not thought about. Um, and when I first started writing about this, this wonderful world of real estate, that that was very much the case, and I remember actually almost having to be apologetic writing articles about well-being or how places made you feel. I think I even remember writing a line in it saying oh, I know there might be some eye rolls when I say this and that just wouldn't be the case now, but it's always been a passion of mine and the way that places and spaces make us feel is visceral. It's so deep rooted and it can be so powerful and it always occurs.
Speaker 3:I've always thought, if it can be that powerful for the end user, the commercial element behind that has to be there. It has to be because you're, you know you're elevating someone's life, someone's experience. It has to be because you're, you know you're elevating someone's life, someone's experience. And, as I said when I launched, well Placed, the difference between a good space and a bad space can be the difference between a good day and a bad day and in extreme cases it can be the difference between a good life and a bad life.
Speaker 3:And actually saying that actually makes me feel quite emotional that the industry has that much power, and that's where the passion comes from and I just wanted to write about it and write about the people who are doing great things, and I've never wanted to be a sort of critical of a sector that I think works very hard in many ways and often actually gets pinned.
Speaker 3:It gets the blame pinned on it for a lot of things that you know I'm not sure is always fair, so I'm not one is always fair, so I'm not one to say, well, the industry hasn't always been very good at this, or the industry still isn't very good at this, but I think it would be true to say that it's been something of a blind spot and that's changing, which is amazing to see, but it is, it is visceral and it is something which is incredibly deep-rooted, as I say, within all of us. And that is why I wanted to launch Wellplaced and write about this stuff because, as far as I could see, it was about as close to speaking directly to people whether that be the industry or the end user as as I could imagine.
Speaker 2:So that's why I did it yeah, no, amazing and um, I think. I think that you know the, the way that we talk about what we do as a industry, and also, obviously, particularly you. You know, commentating on the industry itself is is so important, isn't it to? To that, obviously, actions speak louder than words and we need to, as an industry, you know, continue to keep trying to do the right thing for people, for places. But that role of commentating, of talking, of almost portraying the work of the industry in a certain way, how do you see that? Because that is obviously a real responsibility, it's a great position to be in. You've mentioned that you've worked at publications like eg, which is kind of narrow, industry focused, but then you know wallpaper design and others. They're they're much broader, they're much more for um, for everyone to consume, as opposed to just a surveyor or an engineer. So how do you see that?
Speaker 3:well, I think that's the beauty of the industry is that it goes back to what I was saying before is that people might think it's niche, but it's. It's not. So it's the same stuff in a slightly different language, in a slightly different tone. Um. So, with the industry, obviously, it's much more focused on the internal workings and what you know it and within the industry. Of course, it depends on who you're talking to within the industry, and I've and I've always I don't know why, but I'm very pleased I I'm this way inclined. I've always been had my attention captured by what's coming up. So in 2013, it was tech and innovation. I went out to San Francisco and met all the sort of the people that were operating within the, the real estate firms, but really focusing on tech out there who were in the heart of it in Silicon Valley, and then well-being, wellness.
Speaker 3:So, from my perspective, my role as a commentator not entirely, but has largely been about identifying future trends and then reporting back to the industry and saying, oh, have you seen this? Have you seen that? Never. Why aren't you doing this? You've missed a trick. That's something I've always tried very hard to avoid.
Speaker 3:Maybe there's someone watching this thinking there's a piece back in 2014. That would beg to differ, but that's never been my intention. So I don't believe that chastising a sector is a great way to get any kind of change moving forward, so that chastising a sector is a great way to get any kind of change moving forward. So, as a commentator within the sector, it's, as I say, very much been about identifying future trends and reporting back and hoping to give people some inspiration and some reassurance that things can be done, changes can be made. There's been a lot of reassurance that's been needed around a lot of this stuff whether it be innovation or well-being that there's a commercial, it's commercially viable and there's nothing to be ashamed of there there are some amazing, amazing players within this sector who are incredibly outspoken on that.
Speaker 3:You know tim heatley from capital centric. You know very, um, sort of uh, social impact focused developer. He does it because he believes in it. But he said and this is a quote that he gave me once you know, I'm not doing it because I'm a goody two-shoes, I'm doing it because I want to make money, um, and I want to make money, but I also want to do it in a way which you know is important for the, for the wider, the wider community.
Speaker 3:And again, martin evans landsat you and I said that there should be no shame in, you know, architects, designers, developers, wanting to do this stuff, this great stuff, but there has to be a commercial element to it too. So I think that's been quite an important role in sort of reporting back on these issues, as they've been coming down the line and saying this is important, this is why it's important, these are the people who are doing it already, this is how they're doing it, these are the challenges, this is how they're overcoming them. And then, ultimately, whilst not being critical, sometimes saying if we don't do this or if the industry doesn't do this, it might find itself in a bit of a sticky situation, because this is what demand is looking like, this is where demand is going. So that's the industry commentary. And then, when it comes to the wider, broader stuff, I think that is, it's similar, but it is, I suppose, more about taking certain elements of what that industry does so beautifully and then inspiring the outside world, meaning that we have less and less people who say, oh, it's quite, it's quite niche, isn't it like that's what I'm trying to do there and say, look at this building, look at this incredible building. It might just look like a commercial project to you that a developer that you don't know much about is doing, but actually this building could change the way we live. This building could change the way we work, and that's what I'm trying to do there.
Speaker 3:It's a building or a you know, a beautiful piece of furniture or anything like that, something that is has captured someone's interest and imagination and that is going to have an impact on the way we live. And that makes me feel like, even if that reaches one person who previously didn't think they knew much about the real estate sector or didn't understand how much of an impact the real estate sector has on their daily lives. One of my favourite things I did was writing a piece about what Stanhope were doing actually with one of their City London office buildings, and wrote about it for a design magazine where the readership is much more broad, and I felt quite proud doing that because I thought, well, this is an opportunity to take something which normally wouldn't register on people's radars and show them what this industry is doing and what it's capable of. So there's a lovely crossover between the two and I do try and bridge that gap as much as I possibly can.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, amazing um. And, as you say, you know, profit is definitely not, you're not a dirty word, it's, it's fundamental, isn't it? As an enabler to um, to making you know all the other things happen. You know, big capital projects in development or design, um, I don't think many people in our industry want to remain on paper. You know people want to see things realized once they've been built, and you know that's never going to happen unless things are are viable and and that's so, so critical um, and so you know, when you you talk about um, you know everyday people, consumers, however you want to to frame that, are you not industry professionals? What are those things that really kind of peak interest then, in terms of you know something that you would, you would see in a project, see in a place, see in a piece of furniture. You go right. I really need to share that in these publications because it's it's going to resonate with people so something.
Speaker 3:So there's the two things. There's two tracks, and one of them is just a it's just the way in which we live our lives now and the other one is sort of a slightly deeper way of looking at things. So one is the aesthetic, and that is something that I would love for it not to be so important, but at the same time, you know, something that looks doesn't have to be look beautiful, because I think that that's subjective, but something that looks doesn't have to be look beautiful because I think that that's subjective, but something that looks arresting, engaging, that looks different, that that captures something we live. You know we live in the world of social media and you know that that that's something that I'm always keeping an eye out for. But more than that, it's something I've touched on earlier in our conversation. It's something that I look at and I think people need to know about that, because that is gonna either change the way they live their lives, change the way they think about living their lives or inspire them to look at the world around them differently.
Speaker 3:So one of my favorite examples I was on holiday in Helsinki, I wasn't working, I was on holiday in Helsinki and I walked past the Udi library. I don't know if you've come across that, but um, and it was just, I sort of put my head around the door and was like, oh my gosh, like completely sucked in, went to the reception desk and said, can someone give me a tour?
Speaker 3:and they were like, well, not, not, not, really, so please is there anyone here who knows anything about the design that could give me a tour. And you know I can try and write about it and I'd love to write about it. And they're looking at me like who's this woman? Um, and they I don't know how I must have persuaded them. They went and found someone. I got this tour of this incredible building, which in my mind is one of the most amazing um examples of public placemaking or placemaking, but we'll come on to that. But public space that I've ever seen and it is, it is beautiful. So there was that, you know, arresting um and very visual. But what it was that captured my interest and I wrote about it for EG and um, a sort of broader, more design publication. So I wrote about it for the industry and I wrote about it for human beings more generally.
Speaker 3:What was amazing about it was some of the stuff that's not even physical. I mean, the physical stuff was incredible. You know there was a whole floor dedicated to elevating the people of Helsinki or Finland to be able to achieve their dreams. I mean, how amazing is that? So 3D printers that were free to use recording to be able to achieve their dreams. I mean how amazing is that. So 3D printers that were free to use, recording equipment that was free to use, sewing machines that were free to use, so people could launch their businesses or go and do their, go and do a piece of work without having to fork out for their own 3D printer. You know who's got the ability to do that.
Speaker 3:But then, probably the most amazing thing was when I was leaving, the person that had been forced to basically to give me a impromptu tour said the wi-fi around this building extends quite a long way out into the, the sort of the, the square around it, and the building has purposely been built so that there is a kind of sort of a canopy, a ring around the building. And they said that's so that people, particularly maybe school children, who don't live in houses where there's fast enough Wi-Fi, can come and sit after the library itself is shut, do their homework or, you know, do their university work or their work work or whatever it might be. They're under a cover, they're dry, there's good Wi-Fi, it's a public meeting point and it's basically a city asset for the people. That's amazing, isn't that amazing?
Speaker 3:And I just thought, wow, that's something that the industry needs to know about, because that's a great idea and that's something that people need to know about, and I think if the two sides are informed about these things, you know, and that there's no, oh well, that's not going to be interesting to humans in general. Honed in the demands will be as to what people want from their spaces and places of the future, and the industry needs to know what those demands are to be able to deliver it. So, if that makes sense, kind of operating the two at the same time- yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, um, um and so.
Speaker 2:so what do you think? Maybe more broadly than over over your 20 years or so in the industry, maybe has changed around those narratives about what people care to read, about what people care to talk about, and does that leave you feeling much more optimistic about where we're going or where we are?
Speaker 3:Definitely. And I think there is an understandable and necessary tendency sometimes to say we've got so far to go because we do. I think you know it would be. It would be wrong to say we didn't. But when you look at where we've come from and I think that you know with, with 20 years of writing about this industry, interviewing people within this sector, I do have that, you know, as as with lots of people who have been in the sector for that long, I do have this kind of like markers in time where I can look back and think, oh gosh, I actually can't believe the world we lived in back when I started writing about this sector not just the industry, but the world, um, and it's, it's, that's always going to be the way, isn't it? I think, when you look back in, 20 years is a long time. So when you look back over that period of time, it is quite shocking really. And, as I said, there were things like wellness, well-being, where for a while, you know it wasn't, it wouldn't be worth writing about it at all, and then when we started to write about it, when I started to write about it, it was almost, as I said, apologetically like please don't stop reading this. Please don't stop reading carrot. You know, and that's it. You know, and I remember sort of sort of launching the um, covering the launch of um well, standards, and being like I hope people read this because this is important and it's all. For so long it was very much seen as an add-on, but I think that and this is nothing against anyone particularly it's nothing against, you know, cultures and stuff, but I think that as the industry grows up and you have more people coming in with with different values, I I feel like well-being, whether it be emotional well-being or physical well-being, is really at the heart of what it is that people want from their spaces and places, and not in the way that I think it was wrongly perceived whenever it, you know, 15, 20 years ago, you know, moany and a bit pathetic and all. That's just not the case. It's the essence of life, isn't it how we feel? So I feel like that's changed a lot.
Speaker 3:The sort of pursuit of innovation and technology that's an interesting one, because I think with that one, I think the will is there. I think with all these things and it is worth talking about it there is, you know, the there's always an issue around cost isn't there. You know what's this going to cost? Um, and anyone working real estate is obviously part of you know their own business or a big business and, as we said before, you know commercial viability is really important. So I think that's been a barrier and so it's quite good now to see that we're getting so far along the line and I think maybe even more so in sort of well-being and climate than we are in sort of other areas of tech and innovation that we're getting to the point now where it's it's getting you know more and more non-negotiable that we need these things. So people are working much harder to find solutions to that and that's very exciting, really exciting.
Speaker 3:So I was talking to there's this very inspirational lady called Carrie Denning-Jackson. So she works for Jamestown. She's head of technology and innovation at Jamestown, which is a New York-based developer at Jamestown, which is a New York based developer, and she is very, very concerned about the use of toxic building materials and she's so concerned about it that she's getting to that point now and quite quickly, where she's identifying some of the problems and then coming up with solutions to saying, okay, so some of these more healthy, less toxic building materials that there's a cost issue with them. So why not have the developers that are looking to build with that sort of material club together work out how much they need between them, buy in bulk? It's an opportunity for collaboration, it's an opportunity to use different materials. So whether or not that's realistic right now I hope it is. I don't know, but it is really reassuring to hear some people talking about some of those solutions.
Speaker 3:But, in terms of your wider question, you know how much has changed and how far have we come just so far, and I think that that is something to really be celebrated. And, as I mentioned again previously, this industry has come under a lot of fire for all kinds of things. You know, climate's a big one, of course Just coming under fire for not getting things right, creating issues, and while those statements in terms of what we're seeing happening in the world and the output that we're seeing from the real estate sector, for example, in terms of, you know, emissions, while it's true to a degree, I just don't think chastising is the way forward. It's not, it's not, it's not encouraging. And where change, I don't, you know, I would think that where change comes from best is a place of, you know urgency, because it is urgent, but hope and you know encouragement, so that's, that's what I'd say. We've come a long way, long way to go, but um, no shame, no blame yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Um. So, in terms of that, where we, where we go, then collectively as an industry, but also, you know, as a society, um, you've mentioned some examples already, whether it was going to california, to, to visit people in technology, or your trips to the nordics and that kind of much more natural, more humane kind of way of way of living. If, um, if, tomorrow, you had to get on a plane or a train or a bike or whatever it was and and go somewhere where you you felt, okay, well, we could go and learn something as an industry from that place or that, that country, that sector, um, and bring that back. Does anything come to mind?
Speaker 3:yeah, well, you know, this is the thing they're getting on a plane. It's tricky one, isn't it? So if I could teleport anywhere? Um, well, there are. There are examples all over.
Speaker 3:This is the thing I said, and I said in well placed it's, there are little pockets of brilliance, so I think it's quite difficult to pick one particular place, because you can have an amazing, you know, you can have somewhere which where there's not much going on, but something absolutely incredible, and then somewhere where you know, I suppose, if I had to choose, then you mentioned the Nordics, but I always come back from the Nordics feeling incredibly inspired, um, and whether it's the Uji library or the Lolu sauna, another building that I've written about for Well Placed, which is just the most beautiful example of bringing people together. You know, sauna culture is massive, obviously, over there. I'd had no idea how big it was until I went and took part in it and actually went through a hole in the ice, because that's what you do. And I said to them well, no, I'm not gonna do that. And they looked at me as if to say, yeah, I mean you are, because that's what we do. Um, and then just, I had a. It was amazing, actually. So it's an incredible building, beautifully designed. It's on an old strip of land outside Helsinki, outside the um, the main, the main sort of hub of the city, that was disused, industrial. Nothing was going on. So they thought, well, let's do something with it. So that's already brilliant, isn't it? Right on the Baltic Sea.
Speaker 3:And I just remember having come out of the sauna in this incredible architectural gem of a building and sitting and having dinner after this sauna experience and just feeling so incredibly happy. And I think that that mixture of beautiful design, health and well-being, just as part of a wider culture, is just, is brilliant. And it, you know it's a timber building and you know the stats are. I don't you know I say don't quote me on this, but I'm saying it so the stats are that you're something like 40 percent happier when you're surrounded by natural materials. And then you've got stockholm and wood city, which is another incredible project, ambitious project, um, and I'd be really interested to see how it actually manifests. But you know the the biggest timber mass timber structure um in the world. It's going to be, you know so, and I'm speaking to um annika um, who is leading that project out there, about the boldness that take it takes to say it's never been done before. We're going to do it anyway, why not? And then Copenhagen, you know, and those areas I mean.
Speaker 3:You mentioned Bjarke, so yes, um, I've spoken to him a few times, obviously an incredibly boundary pushing designer and developer, um um from Denmark, and he'd said that he wanted to be a cartoonist but there was no cartoonist university in the area. So then he decided to go into design and that's again, you know, just inspirational stuff putting a down a ski slope and climbing wall on the same building as a waste power plant. And I was speaking, actually speaking to him about it this week, and I said you know, it's said, you know it's one of the projects people talk about. And he looked and said, yeah, he said there are lots of reasons why people don't put a ski slope on top of a waste energy plant, though. And then he just sort of like trailed off, as if to say I did it anyway. And I think that's a very different way of thinking, and lots of the people that I've interviewed who've done incredible things do think differently to other people yeah, they don't have the.
Speaker 3:They don't have the, that boundary. And, as Bjarke said, whenever anyone comes to me and gives me all the reasons why my project won't work, and he said, and because of the projects I do, that happens a lot, I just see it as a to-do list of all the things that I need to fix to make it work. So he said it's quite a helpful, useful thing?
Speaker 2:yeah, he does, he does have that. You know um, I've, I've had lunch for him in, uh, in teverley, actually in the um wow, in the gardens there, it was quite amazing oh my gosh, I think it's the audacity actually in some of the projects.
Speaker 2:Is that it that thing, isn't it? It's kind of just um the almost like the clarity of the idea around. You know, people in copenhagen love to ski, but there's nowhere to ski, so how can we provide that? And um, yeah, I think that that aspect, um, you've almost got on one. He kind of sits in the um, as I say, in a slightly audacious, slightly kind of one off, um, yeah, space. And then, as you said, that other aspect of kind of Nordic culture and life is very much the kind of the ordinary, the everyday, the cultural aspect of coal plungers, saunas and other things.
Speaker 3:And isn't it interesting that still, despite that, and despite that being such a central part of the culture over there, and despite that being something that brings them great contentment and happiness, it's taken other places around the world you know, us included quite a long time to actually equate wellness and well-being with. You know, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:Well, I do my cold shower every morning now.
Speaker 3:Do you?
Speaker 2:Which I love it now it's really good. I love it now it's really good Because the stress response you get from the cold shock is the same as you get from any form of kind of anxiety or worry, so that physical response is the same. So if you can learn to control the physical responses and also your mind when you're in the cold water, it then will help you deal with stresses in other areas of your life. So there's a big big thing to it. It's just really really interesting. Um, is that kind of you know that whole kind of wimp off um idea, but um, but yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:And um, saunas, as there's a, there's a startup actually, which you come out, I think they've come out of I think they are danish. Actually I think it's called um sauna 83. Have you seen them? Oh, no, but yeah, they're quite interesting. I think it's sauna 83 and it's basically like a well-branded um, uh, sauna experience, but they're they're effectively for want of a better term they're kind of like garden sheds on wheels that they kind of have around. So they're these kind of portable, movable saunas.
Speaker 2:Um, so it's like pop-up saunas, I guess, and that kind of whole experience about how do you kind of that same um thought process that we're talking about with biaka is the same. There it's like, okay, what do people want to do? How do they want to live their lives, and then how can we kind of make interventions, whether it's a, a big, large building or whether it's a, you know, a very modest kind of sauna, to kind of enable some of that. And I think some of those nordic cities are are great at that. You know the, the, the sort of the lidos that the city provides with steps and diving boards and also frozen over in the winter yeah so I'm in one of those two.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's quite something, but it was amazing yeah, yeah, yeah, and that for me, that that idea of of place, you know, the kind of the bits between the buildings, as well as the kind of the physical aspects of the architecture and design, um that tied to how people experience life and and um connection with other people and quality of life, I think is is super interesting for us as that grow places and that that was my kind of take a little bit on, kind of maybe where the interest is um outside of the industry, from from people.
Speaker 2:You know, when you have a conversation with someone and you say, okay, I'm a developer, they, they look at me like I've, you know, just committed a crime.
Speaker 2:Um, whereas if you say you're kind of um interested in place, interested in life, interested in kind of helping to, to grow, to shape those environments, it's like, okay, you know, that's kind of really quite interesting um and it takes it on to a different level of conversation, um, as you say. So I think there's a lot to say about how do we kind of um communicate, what we do and the value that we, that we bring um. Obviously there's a lot of downsides to the way that the industry kind of functions and has functioned, but if we can actually kind of look at that optimistically about where we go next. Um, I think there's a lot of opportunity there and it's not all. It may well be the big shiny things, but it's also just the little everyday moments about how you connect with your family or your friends, or you take your child to nursery and what's that experience like. And that's the bit that we're particularly really interested in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, the everyday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that kind of idea of how places feel, this notion of kind of public and private, I think is something which is very different in different parts of the world and different cities, society you live in, and that kind of also filters down on on the ground and, uh, ideas yeah, of public, private space where you feel as a person you can kind of go into, whether it's community assets or holes in the ice or whatever it might be. So so how do you, how do you see that aspect of kind of public and private for you?
Speaker 3:well, one of the best things actually about the Udi library which I, which I didn't, which I'd forgotten about, was that the um it's opposite the, the local. The one of the best things actually about the Oody Library, which I'd forgotten about, was that it's opposite the local sort of the city government buildings and it's purposefully been designed so that the top floor of the library looks into the top floor of the government building in a kind of a mutual decision that the people are on a level with the government, which is beautiful and you really can see right in. So and I love that idea in terms of you know what it represents across the board, but I just love the fact that you can look in and be on that level. But, interestingly, I've had a few conversations recently about how public spaces and buildings have become even more powerful now than the private. That you know changes in the way that we work, changes in the way that we live. You know it used to be that going behind closed doors of a shiny, you know sort of exclusive building was where value lay, and now there are very few buildings office buildings particularly that are coming down the line that I'm seeing, that do not have some kind of element of public access space in them, um, which is brilliant, it's the way it should be and giving something back, um, but then also just the power of public space, whether you know, and it can be um, public buildings, places like udia or other places like that, but also just public space more generally.
Speaker 3:Um, and I was talking to it's actually daniel leapskin about this, and he was talking about what he'd done at um, the world trade center site, and saying that, uh, during the or during off the back of the pandemic, when obviously everything shut down and that part of New York was completely shut down really because of all the private buildings and the offices that, as far as he could tell, when things started to open back up, it was actually one of the areas, despite being the financial hub, where people were still not really working. It was one of the areas that picked up more quickly than other areas of new york because of this fantastic public space and also the memory of what had happened there, which was very, you know, which brings, you know, an absolute tragedy, but it does bring people together in a way that a private building, I think, would struggle. So it can be very cohesive public space very levelling. I mean, what's more levelling than you know? Going to be reminded of what happened there.
Speaker 3:You know, it doesn't matter who you are, does it? It's going to get you. So you know, I think that's very, very interesting, very powerful. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I think that's very, very interesting and very powerful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so you know we've both got young families. If you kind of project yourself forward to when your daughter your kids are in their sort of 20s, 30s, so we're sort of projecting forward a little bit.
Speaker 2:What sort of environment would you want them to be living in? I know we've kind of talked about some of that today, but if you were to kind of sum that up, about the kind of place that they're living in and also, obviously as a result of that, how the industry has got to that point, you know, I'd like them to live in a world that is less formal.
Speaker 3:I think that we live in a less formal world now than we did previously, but I think having children brings you back to being a child in so many ways, and they're so joyful and again it's quite emotional. They're so joyful and they take such pleasure in the simplest things around them and then the world and life inevitably, you know, messes them up, hardens them up. I mean, I say that politically, of course it doesn't, you know, that's just life, isn't it? And we become, you know, we become sort of more weathered versions of ourselves. But there is something there's so much to learn from children. There's so much to learn from them across so many facets of life and living. But one of them is around your physical environment.
Speaker 3:You know, um, actually we were away this weekend last weekend, and it was for my mum's 70th birthday and we went to a. We went to a house that we were all staying at and I'd forgotten to pack anything for my kids. I'd forgotten, not anything, but I'd forgotten to pack any toys. So I'd done all that done, you know, clothes and everything, but I'd forgotten to pack the toys. And I know that that's not real estate, but you know it's physical stuff. And for about five minutes I was worried about it and then they got the cushions off the sofas and made up this game where you had to, like, hop from one to the other or something, and they played it for about an hour and a half. You know, and just that ability to work with what they have around them.
Speaker 3:So, going back to my previous point, I'd love it if the world was a bit more real, a bit less formal and, as I say, you know that a bit less. You know rules and regulations about who can go and where and who's allowed to do what. And of course, you know I'm not I'm not advocating anarchy, obviously, but I think places and spaces that are just a bit more relaxed I don't think that the you know this is a personal choice but very, very highly manicured areas that make you feel a bit anxious and like you can't really put a foot out of place. I think I'd love it if that was less of a less of a thing. I think it already is. I think places are becoming a lot more relaxed and they are becoming a lot more, you know, mixed use as well, so you don't just have to be going for one thing and you can go and do lots of different things and you know you can have.
Speaker 3:I like the idea of being able to have kids playing near where people are going to work, and that's life, isn't it? Again, that's life. And we, you know, before our time it was even more segregated in terms of, you know, you spend your time doing this and you go to these places for your work and you have these places for your home and never the twain shall meet, you know, which is something which is just not the case anymore. And the pandemic in many ways, did a great service I mean, it's awful, but did a great service in some ways to just reminding everybody that we are all part of these wider. You know infrastructures in our lives, of these wider. You know infrastructures in our lives it's not just us. You know whether you've got kids or not. You know having those zoom calls with everybody's, but you know everyone's houses being visible and you know it just made it all a lot more human, a lot less formal, and that made me feel much happier. So that's what I want from them yeah, for them, rather not from them.
Speaker 3:For them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, that's um. That's a great answer to that question For joy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, exactly, and I think it also taps into kind of a fundamental thing that we're trying to do.
Speaker 2:But also I think good places and good buildings do is that they are unfinished. They're actually like the life that happens within them, the people, the way they inhabit them, um, having that informality to, to be able to, to do things within them, um, uh, even extending it to, you know, built fabric and places. You know, often, often, people feel more comfortable in um places that you can kind of knock around, that aren't too polished, that companies can move walls or um, it's like the sort of the feeling of an old kind of knock around that aren't too polished, that companies can move walls or um, it's like the sort of the feeling of an old pair of jeans in that sense, you know, you kind of go back to to that, and I think there's something really kind of you know, sort of uh, deeper within that, actually, about how we experience space and and can move cushions around and play and and explore and not be too, um, controlled in that.
Speaker 2:I think that's really really great way to to frame that. So thank you for that um. So then. So, so how do you think places can kind of, in that context then, um be successful, be future-proofed, as kind of something that I know you've talked about in in the past and again, it may well be kind of one in the same thing, but in a way there's something quite nice about this conversation. We seem to be kind of coalescing back to a series of kind of core ideas, and I think that's that's quite nice actually, that there's kind of that clarity, um, interesting, because that's the way we think about things, and it's interesting that you are thinking about things and and maybe your readership and others are as well yeah, I think you know.
Speaker 3:So I suppose flexibility is is in a way, another way of saying informal um, but maybe a more formal way of saying um. There's spaces and places that don't have to be that. Do you know what I mean? That makes zero sense.
Speaker 1:But it makes sense.
Speaker 2:To me it makes total sense. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Just, you know, and that's another reason that I loved, for example, the buildings I've mentioned I think all of them share something which is that they're not one thing and they can be what everyone that's going there wants it to be. So you know, with the Udi's going there, wants it to be. So you know, with the UDI, whether you want it to be a library. It can be a library, that's great. Do you want it to be somewhere where your kids can run around? Yep, they've got like a whole kids section which is, you know, completely padded inside and feels like going to kind of a rabbit war. You want it to be where you can go and find out about government plans and proposals. The whole ground floor has been given over to government consultations, so they've got, you know, all the programs and everything like pinned up. People can go and have a look at it. Do you want to go and have a look at it through the perspective of being a piece of art? Yes, they've got architects who've designed these and stunning um centerpiece stairwells that are pieces of works of art. Do you want to go and do a cookery class? Yes, do you want? And that's a great example.
Speaker 3:And similarly with the sauna, like do you want to go and have a sauna? Yes, do you want to go and have some drinks with your friends? Yes, I didn't know that they I mean, I didn't know that the the bar inside the sauna was actually in the sauna area and that you know everyone's sitting there with their wine, like wrapped in their towels, and everything but talk about informal. That was amazing. Like no shoes. Like no shoes, no makeup, everyone's like in their towels, having the best time, and it was. You know, what was really interesting about that was that the conversations that were going on. Not that I speak the language, but I could see that the conversations that were going on were just so relaxed in that environment and that was that was brilliant, and you can really I could see that people were really tailoring the space to how they wanted to use it and with that comes so much lightness.
Speaker 3:I think and it's the same with a commercial office building in the middle of central London and some developers are doing it incredibly well. Derwent London are doing some amazing, amazing stuff with their lounge spaces and you know they've seen an uptick in rents because of it, you know, at a time when offices are really struggling. Why? Because you know they've given their occupiers and their occupiers' employees access to spaces where they can go and just do what they want. I mean not not what they want, like you know but they can go and, like, sit in an armchair, have a meeting, grab some lunch. You know it's not set um. So I think that's you know, that's for me that that flexibility, whether it's flexibility or informality, are things that people really crave in life yeah, I completely agree.
Speaker 2:Um emily, thank you very much for your time. I think it's been an amazing conversation and, um yeah, really grateful for your time, oh well, thank you very much for for having me.
Speaker 3:It's been brilliant and I love talking about this stuff, so thank you very much. The opportunity, because it's normally me on the other side, so you know I won't say I wasn't a bit nervous, but you know it's been great to have a conversation about something which is very close to my heart.
Speaker 2:Awesome, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Grow Places podcast. For more information, visit growplacescom and follow us at. We Grow Places across all social channels. See you next time.