Grow Places

GP 29: National Park City: with Director Mark Cridge

• Grow Places • Season 1 • Episode 29

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What happens if our cities are National Parks? 

We're joined by Mark Cridge, the director of the National Park City Foundation, as we explore this bold vision, using London as a ground-breaking example. Almost half of London is green and blue space, filled with diverse species and rich with potential. This episode challenges the traditional view of urbanity by reimagining cities as thriving ecosystems that can play a pivotal role in battling climate and environmental crises. Through powerful storytelling, we uncover how urban spaces can nurture both nature and community, creating a vibrant tapestry of life in unexpected places.

Learn how their volunteers and "Rangers" are driving change on the ground in London. Their passion and dedication are lighting up their communities as they amplify their impact through the National Park City initiative. We dive into the stories of these local heroes and explore the importance of supporting community-based efforts to tackle environmental challenges head-on. Discover how simple acts of agency and connectivity can ripple out to create social value and environmental resilience, offering a blueprint for cities worldwide to follow.

Imagine shifting from being mere consumers to active citizens. Inspired by Jon Alexander's book "Citizens" this episode emphasizes the profound impact of grassroots engagement on urban transformation. From encouraging local food production to enhancing public involvement in nature recovery, we discuss the Charter for London National Park City and how it aims to redefine urban living. By integrating nature into daily life, promoting equitable access to green spaces, and empowering disadvantaged communities, we envision a sustainable, harmonious future for cities everywhere. Tune in to envision what our urban spaces could become when we embrace our role as caretakers of both nature and community.

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the Grow Places podcast, where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth and place Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, tom Larson.

Speaker 2:

Mark hi, how are you doing?

Speaker 3:

I'm very good Tom.

Speaker 2:

Thank you very much for having me here.

Speaker 3:

It's an absolute pleasure to host you On Fleet. Street Indeed.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, in the heart of the city it is very much so.

Speaker 3:

But we're talking today about National Park City. Yeah, what does that mean? It's a great question and one that I really enjoy answering. So you've been to a national park before in the UK. So national parks in the UK they're wilderness environments, places you go to, you visit and you do stuff together. Outside, you get closer to nature, you learn about your ecology and environment and really about the whole place.

Speaker 3:

And what a national park city is? It really takes those same concepts and applies them to an urban area and up until now, really the only type of ecosystems globally that didn't have some kind of protected status were urban environments. But urban environments are no less biodiverse, varied, wild and green and blue and all the wonderful aspects of nature than you might find in some more traditional rural national parks. But why that's important now is because you're in the midst of the climate and environmental crises that we're facing. In the biodiversity crisis, you need to really help people reconnect with nature and especially reconnect with nature where they are. So by bringing the concept of national parks to cities and urban environments, we can introduce this new story that we feel is going to be really important in the decades to come amazing, amazing, and I'm really like looking forward to unpacking some of this with you.

Speaker 2:

Um, so so is this? Is this about kind of like habitat for you, then, in that sense, in terms of how we as a species are living, or is it much, much broader than that alone? And and how do you think that kind of aspect of daily life kind of factors into this?

Speaker 3:

well, the daily life, the, the, the helping people reconnect with nature every day, where they are, is a really important aspect. Um, and I think the first thing is just to get people to value and recognize what's already around them. You, as I touched upon your with london. London became the world's first national park city in 2019. And when you think of London, you think of buildings and construction and noise and pollution and all the things you would associate busyness and industry and so on. What you wouldn't necessarily think of is wonderful, green, outside environment and full of nature. But actually London is, I think, very fortunate. I mean, anyone that lives in London hopefully knows this. London's an incredible city and actually, to be the first national park city, it can really lead the way in that regard. But London is almost 50% green and blue space already, when you take into account all the allotments and front gardens and wonderful parks in the center of town and the four and a half thousand parks, the 36 nature reserves, the sites of scientific, special scientific interest, 1600 sites of importance for nature conservation, all the rivers and canals, and, yeah, it's incredibly green and blue already.

Speaker 3:

I think the focus for a national park city is, first of all, to celebrate what we already have, to show how people can make more of it and value it and protect what they have and maybe enhance it and improve it. But it's as much about the 50 percent of london which isn't yet green and blue. You know how we can bring. You make more of london, welcoming to nature, to, to bring more greening to the urban environment, to to make sure our rivers are clean enough to swim in and you know the the the air is, is, you know, clean enough to breathe, frankly, as well. So it's about all of those aspects, bringing them all together, because really, the National Park City concept is about the whole place, about the whole landscape.

Speaker 3:

So, just as I mentioned up front about national parks, I was thinking about the whole landscape. It's really about everything that happens in that place, everyone who lives in that place, both human and non-human. London is actually incredibly biodiverse. There's 15,000 species other than humans live in London. That's actually a lot more biodiverse than some of the more wilderness environments we might be used to in the UK. So it's a real opportunity, I think, to celebrate what we have, uh, but also introduce new ideas to, to, to people that might value it so so, mark, so what?

Speaker 2:

tell me a bit about yourself, then. Yeah, let's, let's go there and and understand a little bit more about you as a person, and why, why have you chosen to spend your time doing yeah, pursuing this?

Speaker 3:

absolutely, I mean, I think, first of all, I'm sort of blessed in the fact that I've come quite late to this. I joined just less than two years ago as director of the national park city foundation, but it was really off the back of this incredible group of people who've put this wonderful initiative together, and what attracted me to it was it's just a really powerful story. I'm really seduced by this idea of using the storytelling around National Park City as a way of helping people to see the city differently and, considering the scale of the climate and biodiversity and environment crisis we're facing, we need new stories. You know, we need to see the city differently. We need to imagine different futures for how we're going to live in cities over the coming decades, because, ultimately, city yes, I think I can't remember which UN agency it is, but I think 70% of all people are estimated globally will live in cities and urban areas by 2050. And cities are where power lies, where change happens, where people live, where people work, and so any story that can help change perceptions about what it means to be in a city, you would assume, could have a disproportionate impact, both positive or negative, uh towards uh, ultimately, how we deal with the worst of the climate biodiversity crisis. So that's what attracted me to it, and I think it's important up front as well.

Speaker 3:

So the original founder, an amazing guy called Dan Raven Ellison. He was joined by a wonderful group of friends people at Alison Barnes from New Forest National Park, paul De Silva from Friends of the Earth, tim Webb and a host of others, jude Ling Wong and so on and they came together with this. They took this idea, they created this story and they made it happen. You know, after five, six years of campaigning, 2019, london became the world's first national park city, and maybe we'll come back on to that. But so that's what attracted me to it, and so my background why, why would I be attracted to this is, um, so I guess, over over the last 25 years or so.

Speaker 3:

I'm originally from Scotland, lived in London for more than half my life, so I love the city, I love being here, but also I see its challenges and issues and want to understand what role might me as one individual play? And what you recognise is you need to build movements and collaborate and partner with people to really sort of make significant change happen. So I really saw that opportunity here with national park city and also the benefit of working with a story like this is it people make it their own. You really make. It's really important that people make it their own for their own neighborhood, for their own street, for their own. You have, uh, your the, the places they live within the city as well, and I think there's real scope for that. Um, and so, yeah, what what?

Speaker 3:

My background? I guess I studied architecture, uh, back in the 90s and, uh, very quickly, whilst I loved architecture and still do, I realized that wasn't for me. I ended up, the internet came along, I joined a couple of design companies and then, in 1999, I set up a digital advertising agency, never having worked in an advertising agency before. That was the kind of stupid thing you do in your 20s, I guess you know. You just go, yeah, why the hell not? We'll do it. And that was very successful, grew that for about 12 years and really learned, both through architecture education and through the sort of the advertising world. Learned the importance of narrative and storytelling and being able to stand up and and and your, your, your picture, an abstract concept, and use it as a way of of making change happen.

Speaker 3:

But I was becoming increasingly, um, frustrated with the advertising world. It's an incredible profession. You get to see inside so many uh, different organizations, different ways of working, different ways of doing things. But I was obviously really disillusioned by that point about how I was spending my time. You know, making ads for selling crap was not really what I felt was. You know, we should be doing it at that point in time and, you know, 10, 12 years ago there was no such thing as purpose-driven advertising. You couldn't, either you were in it or you were not, and that happened to overlap. I'd also become very involved with the green party at the time in england and wales and I was working also supporting caroline lucas's campaign to become the first green mp. But I took on an elected position within the party a voluntary position, and it was his management coordinator for five years and helped grow their membership from about 14 000 to 65 000 people, which was really you know rode that sort of political wave around.

Speaker 3:

You know a better understanding the environment, but there came a point when you're running a global ad agency agency and being on the exec of the Green Party was somewhat incompatible, so ultimately I decided to move on from that. The past 10 years or so, I've been involved in various smaller organizations and charities, spent seven wonderful years at this incredible charity called my Society, who are a civic technology organization, and they really pioneered the use of online services for civic participation. So working with again that was an organization I'd come into after the founder and it helped put on a more sustainable footing and help develop and focus some of the services. So I think in each of the since start my own organization 25 years ago, whatever this things have done subsequently have tended to be coming into established organizations that either need a refocus or a new direction of increasing momentum or so on, and obviously, coming into national park city.

Speaker 3:

Uh, so yeah, national park london became a national park city in 2019, just before the pandemic, and whilst there were many tragic things happened over the pandemic, obviously for us as an organisation focused on getting people to do stuff together outside, it wasn't a great period, so we lost a bit of momentum post launch, but that story was so powerful and so strong and the work that had been done to get to that point was was was meant? There was this incredible um, sort of uh, core of, of, of, uh of the organization to kind of sort of take forward. So over the past couple years we focused on getting more people involved, building up the rangers program uh, you're working on fundraising and uh, you're just making ourselves more relevant to more communities throughout london yeah, yeah, amazing.

Speaker 2:

And um, love, we'll dive into national park city. Yeah, a little bit more detail in a second, but just just on a personal level for you, mark, you know you've had a very interesting, diverse career there. Yeah, um, what do you feel? Maybe some of the underlying sort of drivers in you personally that are are steering you in those directions, because, as you've mentioned the word purpose already, there's obviously a clear drive to why you're doing what you're doing yeah, there's a great um the book new power by henry timms and jeremy hyman's.

Speaker 3:

There's a great line from that which I have promised to get written up, jeremy Hyman's. There's a great line from that which I have promised to get written up on the wall up here. It's a movement's only a movement if it moves without you, and that, for me, is the brief for what we're doing here. And so what I really love is helping create the conditions for other people and organizations and communities to really thrive and prosper, and that, for me, that's the thing that I see, that in National Park City, that this is a vehicle and a story and a narrative which can help people really unlock potential that already exists within communities.

Speaker 3:

Huge fan of the work of Cormac Russell around this sort of asset based community development and and you know who really talks so much about that that communities have everything they need within them already to thrive, and actually the job is to is is an outside organization, is to help unlock that potential potential that the communities lead on themselves, and I think that's uh, I just find that work wonderful and passionate and really excited to kind of see that happen, because when you see that movement starting to build and people taking the ideas and the story and telling it back to you and making it their own. That's when you know things are really starting to change. So that's that's what gets me excited about it, I think yeah, yeah, amazing, and that really comes across in everything.

Speaker 2:

You know that you're saying, the way you're operating, and you know, for those of you watching this, you'll be able to see, surrounded here by the imagery of, if you say yes, the National Park City, but actually it's people, isn't it? It's kind of what you're emphasising here, and you were telling me a little story. Why don emphasizing here and there's you were telling me a little story.

Speaker 3:

Why don't you tell me a little? Yeah, so, so, um, so, one of one of the. So the images here are from a, a billboard campaign we did last year. We were fortunate to get support from jc deco, who gave us 100 billboards across london, and we could have just done come to london national park city. We're great, you know, but actually what was really core was us platforming all the amazing individuals and organizations that already make london so wonderful. And, um, so we have a ranger program. We have 150 volunteer rangers and we've recruited them all across the city.

Speaker 3:

But those rangers, they're the ones who are already active within the community. They are the real catalyst for change. They know the local area and by bringing them together and giving them more support and sort of connecting them together, the hope is that they can learn from each other, they can be more impactful, they can really enhance what they're already doing, and for me, katie is a wonderful example. So, katie Blake, she doesn't need to be a ranger to be incredible. Enhance what they're already doing, and for me, katie is a wonderful example. So, katie blake, she, uh, she doesn't need to be a ranger to be incredible. You know, she already runs very active down in folkestone road allotments down in newham, involved with the olympic park, volunteering for years. You know she's an amazing, uh, community activist and leader within her own space. But I remember we went down, we met down at the allotments and for her being a ranger just gave her a sense of purpose and collective agency that felt she had a more just permission to really be even better. You know and I think that was I was it was so wonderful to hear how that can, how, how being part of that program can help sort of change her and help her do more. Someone who is already incredible just feels it can do more. And I think, individually the Rangers are an incredible group of people that you know they're passionate, they're committed. They're the ones who are already taking initiative and and doing that.

Speaker 3:

You can think about paula harvey who runs urban forest tribe up in islington and hamstead. You know she's works with kids with special educational needs and and does a lot of work with forest schooling and all sorts of you're getting people to connect with nature and where they are and work outside. You know michael schelling who not only took these photographs but is this incredible super volunteer who works for so many different organizations, documenting, storytelling, kind of sharing this, a work that that people are doing, I think. I think this is this is part of it, probably this we've got a very simple job in many ways with it is we just need to sort of hold up this mirror to all the incredible organizations that already exist and just helping people understand that all of this is on the doorstep already. It's all possible. Even if it isn't happening in your area, it's probably happening in another part of london. So if you can take those ideas and apply it to your own area again, that's how we make this change happen everywhere.

Speaker 3:

Because ultimately, nashville park city, we were a tiny organization we were only what three staff and you know but we we like to have a feel we have a bigger footprint because we can help as a connector and a convener and and help and sort of raise awareness about the good stuff that's already happening. And I think you know also, I think about our role within the climate and environmental crises is we like to think we're sort of relentlessly optimistic we can do this, we can fix it. We're not naive to the sheer horror and scale of biodiversity loss within the UK and the challenge of the climate crisis. But our role is to show what's possible, and we sit within that broader spectrum of organisations who might take different stances but are all committed to kind of helping people realize just how fucked things are and how quickly we need to kind of change what we're doing. And that again comes back. How do you change what people, things at a mass scale? You need to introduce a new story as to what's possible. Yeah, and that's what national park city's about.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, amazing and then as you say that storytelling, that narrative piece, that emotional hook as to what's possible, yeah, and that's what national park city is about, yeah, amazing. And, as you say, that storytelling, that narrative piece, that emotional hook as to why people feel there's some value in this for them and also for the, for the bigger picture, is really, yeah, really so important, isn't it? And um, yeah, you, as you were talking there, a previous episode of this podcast with a guy called David Saxby from architecture zero zero.

Speaker 2:

I don't know if you know their work, but one of the questions we posed there was how, how do you kind of define social value? Yeah, and in that he he boiled it down to providing people with agency. Yeah, and if you can do that and you can give people a sense of agency in all, in all its aspects, however small that, the kind of the sort of network effect from that can be really quite dramatic, yeah absolutely.

Speaker 3:

there's a great good friend of mine, a guy called john alexander, wrote this incredible book called citizens and um that the premise is really simple that that, basically, when you think of yourself as a citizen as opposed to a consumer, you're more likely to value, benefit to the community, you're more likely to volunteer, you're more likely to take a whole part within society and you're more likely to feel included, and so that simple change of language can create a whole new frame for what we see as important and, ultimately, what decisions we take. So one of the things we did again, dan and everyone put together was the charter for London National Park City and that was based on the universal charter for National Park City and that was based on the universal charter for national park cities, and this was a collaborative process. There were participants from 50 different countries. Boiling down, you know what are the important aspects of a national park city, what is the common ground and the important thing was, when you think of a national park city, it's an entry point into making different decisions about the things that are really important.

Speaker 3:

So it's as much about the nature and wellbeing and health and so on, but it's also about culture and art and sport and playing and being outside together. It's about how we grow our food responsible consumption. It's about how we grow our food responsible consumption. It's about you how we heat our homes and how we get move around the city and transport and so on, because all of those things impact the urban ecosystem and all of them can be influenced, I guess, by that different story, because when we we set different priorities and we value things differently, we will ultimately make different decisions, and we need to be making different decisions about how we live in cities over the next couple of decades yeah, absolutely, and and so do you have a feel for how we go from business as usual, if you want to call it that, to something else yeah, I mean, I think maybe the pandemic taught us there is no such thing as business as usual anymore.

Speaker 3:

I mean that that discontinuity was was was a real wake-up call which we've obviously fallen back from. But, um, are we trying to get back to business as usual? And and actually what? Where does change happen? Change happens individual conversation by individual conversation, street by street, neighbourhood by neighbourhood. So I guess where we try and play is we have the broader National Park City concept, the overall story, but the real change happens when we apply it at this neighbourhood level. So we've got an active piece of work.

Speaker 3:

At the moment we're working with the Greater London Authority on public engagement with London's local nature recovery strategy, and that's recognising those 1600 sites of importance for nature conservation that exist across London and helping people in each local area, in each borough, connect with the sites of importance for nature conservation close to them.

Speaker 3:

The sites of importance for nature conservation close to them. Some of them are on private land, some of them are on public land, some of them are already wonderful, accessible places, but more often than not these places are under threat or people don't have access to them. People, especially from more disadvantaged communities, don't feel they have permission to go to these spaces, they won't spend time there. So I think that's where the change can really happen being able to, to support those communities, to take the lead and and really, uh, having really strong connection with the, the, the wild and green spaces that exist already close to them or could be if they they made different choices. That's a that's where that change really happens, I think yeah, and just on a very, very basic level for anyone out there kind of wondering yeah, you know so.

Speaker 2:

So why is it important to have greenery in cities? Yeah, why is it important for me as an individual? Why? Is it important collectively yeah, it's, it's.

Speaker 3:

There's a huge amount of of evidence now coming out, especially, uh, with miles, richardson university of derby, around the value, the health and well-being benefits that come from connecting with nature. And, um, really, what's? What's driven by? That is not just, um, spending time in nature is actually about connecting with and noticing nature, actually paying attention. That's when you know that can be incredibly valuable, that that actually it helps with stress and overall bodily health and mental health. And, uh, you're it, it's. You're. Where do we, where do we? You know, when we we're not chained to our desk, we seek time outside. We want to be outside together. So, creating places which are safe, accessible, which people, all communities all across London, feel they have that permission and right to be within, that they can take an active role in protecting and nurturing and enhancing. There's so much benefit comes from that. And then, on another level, just the value of nature.

Speaker 3:

Nature is valuable in and of itself. It's not something there for us just to enjoy or see or visit or spend time with. Urban nature is just as valuable as rural nature. An urban fox is just as important as an Arctic fox. Rural nature you're an urban fox is just as important as a, an arctic fox.

Speaker 3:

You know london has, you're more peregrine vulcans than I think anywhere else in in the uk, if not europe as well. You know so it's. It's like there's there's wonderful nature here already which is hugely valuable in and of itself. There are incredible sites which we don't always need to be made fit for human enjoyment. You know it's as much about creating more spaces for nature really to be made fit for human enjoyment.

Speaker 3:

You know it's as much about creating more spaces for nature really to be and exist, and that that obviously uh creates a sort of a situation where it starts to change people's perception of the city. I mean, there's already been great work in in directly, uh, you're addressing issues like air quality and water quality and so on, but anyone who reads the news at the moment is is fully aware of just how bad our rivers are and the pollution issues and all the rest of it. So, even though there's been great strides, there's so much to do. But I think I think the as a, the society, health and the individual health that comes from knowing that you have a role to play in a part is is a hugely powerful, motivating uh sort of you know, call to action for so many people, I think yeah, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2:

Um, it's something which I think is maybe more present in kind of western culture and thinking. But this idea that humans and nature are separate, you kind of separate the definition of those two things, whether it's in medicine or whether it's in kind of different narratives, and whereas actually you know humans are just part of nature, it, it's one system, absolutely. Do you see any examples, either locally or maybe more broadly, where these things are actually coexisting much better, particularly when we talk about an urban environment? Because, depending on which scale you look at it, at, you say that we used the word habitat earlier, that it's effectively a man-made habitat.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely which is right in some sense, but actually, you know, we are just part of nature and we've kind of created our own system that we're operating in question, obviously over how successful it is. But yeah, do you have any thoughts on that?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, well, I mean, it's just as opened up front with. National parks tend to be heavily mediated by human action, just as cities are. Visually they might look somewhat different, but there are few places in the UK especially which aren't, which haven't been seriously changed by human activity. So it's like the fact that cities are more overtly urban doesn't mean there are any less of there's no pristine wilderness environments in the UK anymore. You know, there are certainly not many little pockets here and there.

Speaker 3:

But that idea that we are part of nature, I think that's one of the fundamental reasons of bringing the National Park City concept to where people are, to help people. Even the simple act of recognising that nature isn't somewhere we go, it's not somewhere we visit, it's we are part of nature and it's right here and actually change happens where we are, is much about valuing the nature that we might go to spend time in or go and visit. So I think that simple act of bringing it close to home, where people are, is a really radical act and really exciting starting point, I think yeah, amazing.

Speaker 2:

So so we grow places. We are a developer, regeneration company, so trying to make physical places shape physical places. So help me to kind of understand. What does your ideal city look like? What does it feel like? Well, maybe from maybe some of the physical aspects, but maybe some of the intangibles as well, about maybe governance or place.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely Less cars probably, but that can be a controversial starting point. I think, I think, places where people have and we've mentioned it a few times but where people have real agency, where communities as a whole have agency and we've mentioned a few times but where people have real agency, where communities as a whole have agency, where they're able to access the resources and shape the places they live and work in ways which are beneficial for that whole community. London is a huge place over 9 million people now but is obviously very heavily marked out by the not necessarily borough boundaries, but it's the collection of places together. I think it even happens at a smaller level. I mean, I've used the word neighbourhood a few times.

Speaker 3:

It's really about if you go to somewhere like Hounslow Heston is dramatically different from Chiswick, for instance, but they all sit within the same borough boundary. There's different challenges, different issues, different issues around equality and and kind of wealth and poverty and so on, but the um, yeah, what, what boroughs of a similar elk can learn or neighborhoods of a similar composition can learn from each other across london, is a really kind of interesting sort of way to go, I think you know. So it's kind of that's um, you're seeing a city that that has that flourishing led by people who live in those communities. Uh, that's that. That, for me, would be a wonderful place to live, I think yeah, yeah, definitely, and um, so what?

Speaker 2:

so are you, are you envisaging, kind of on a very caveat, that yes to more greening everywhere?

Speaker 3:

but it's not about putting a bunch of plants in a bunch of places, it's it's. It's not just about sort of we've got, it's not. It's not the um, it's not. It's not even about making more attractive places visually. It's more fundamental than that. I think it's more about you know, actually, the food consumptions are a really important aspect of it. Do I think that we'll grow most of our food within the boundaries of London anytime soon? Probably not.

Speaker 3:

But normalising growing of food and consumption of food locally within a city is a really critical step in introducing important ideas which you're going to help shape the societal decisions we take.

Speaker 3:

Because if we value food which is more local and fresher and closer to home, we're more likely to make decisions well, even if it's not in london, if it's close to the boundaries of london or we recognize that there are seasonal aspects to the way that food should be grown and consumed, those are super important lessons for to normalize within the city as a whole.

Speaker 3:

Um, so, if that reduces a reliance on air freight and you're shipping food in from all over the world out of season and so on, that's, that's a classic sort of climate action that that we need to take. And there's a really important aspect to national park city as well that it's not the jurisdictional boundaries of greater london. That's not where the boundaries lie. The boundaries are much more porous because it's as much about the watershed and where food comes from, where goods and services are transacted and created and made and where we draw resources from um. So it's about reducing all of all of those burdens and bringing things more in line with the sort of existing planetary and urban boundaries that exist. You know, kate Raworth's sort of thinking on the sort of donor economics is a really key, pivotal text to sort of draw upon, using these stories and narratives to bring the burden that living in cities puts upon the natural environment, to try and bring them more in line with what's sustainable going forward.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, amazing. And are there any? If you look back over history, you know because a lot of what you've talked about there you know pre kind of globalization, pre some-some of these other macro factors that have shifted how we live our lives, know, in the 19th century there were really interesting models about how maybe, for example, people lived and worked in a local area and the kind of the city fabric was had more grain to it, etc. Etc.

Speaker 2:

In with regards to the aspects that you're particularly passionate about, do you do, you see, um, maybe looking backwards as well as looking forwards any, any examples of that? Because you, when you talk about you know, localized food growth and those other things, there are periods in history when we kind of did that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, we absolutely did. Of course, it's important to recognise we did it in a time with far fewer people and far fewer people living in cities, so there were different aspects to it. But, you know, that's where I think, that's where so much innovation and entrepreneurialism can be realized, and cities are about people changing things and making new stuff happen. So I think when you switch the priorities and you switch what's important, it doesn't need to be a huge switch. It's not some dynamic shifts necessarily. It can be quite, um, quite subtle, I guess, and just recognizing what's important, you'll start to prioritize different things and you'll start to make space for, um, your some of some of these positive changes to happen.

Speaker 3:

So, as I've alluded to you, with food growing, just to continue to use that an example, yeah, even even growing some tomatoes in a balcony or something, again, it's just a bit not starting to normalize that food is growing. Yeah, it, it can be nurtured over time, it's seasonally and so on. All the things we just touched, yeah, just just really any any small actions which lead towards that, and especially when you start to see other people and reinforcing that this is, this is actually possible, uh, that that's all those things are really critically important to get that. Those big societal shifts, yes as well. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

I'm going to use a phrase that I use a bit, but I almost I already don't like it, but it's this kind of top down, bottom up kind of phrase which you use it because it's well-known, but a lot of what we're talking about is that kind of grassroots. It's that kind of agency, collaborative approach. In your work at National Park City, are you doing much in terms of the policy side, in terms of the big picture side, because you know developments at the moment.

Speaker 2:

You know things like you know. We've got urban greening factor, we've got biodiversity net gain let's think through the planning process which are about the amount of greenery granted. That's not all what you're looking at here, as we, as we've kind of talked about, but in terms of policy mechanisms, in terms of um political consensus and debate, are you?

Speaker 3:

in those circles as well. Yeah, we'd like to do more. I think is a simple answer, but I'll give a couple of examples. Like you know, biodiversity net gain in and of itself really really positive, really welcome the.

Speaker 3:

The fact that we want any new development needs to increase the amount of biodiversity, either with on that site or off site, if not possible, although within the boundaries of the city would be ideal and they're all great things. But you know, if you actually take it back to, to, um, the biodiversity cop, cop 15, uh, last year, 18 months ago, where the ambition to protect 30% of the world's land by 2030 came into play, it would be very easy to just assume that that big international goal is just about again, these pristine, untouched places, the big places where people aren't. Actually, I would hope we definitely support the idea that actually cities can play a disproportionate role in protecting more space within cities. It might be much more difficult, but again, the role of developers, the role of people who are owners of space, who are stewards of existing spaces, to to maximize the amount of biodiversity which takes place, even it doesn't need to be. Not every place needs to be this wonderful, completely rewilded, untouched. You know, there's. There's a huge range of different options, and neither is the answer just putting honeybees everywhere, as we know, you know. So it's kind of, but there's it's.

Speaker 3:

I think the important thing is every individual, every community, every business, every landowner, every property developer needs to ask what role are they going to play over the next 10, 20 years? What are they going to do, considering the opportunities and restrictions that they operate with under and and and? What can they do now, what can they do in the near future and what could they do with more imagination, you know. So I think it's. It's really sort of incumbent on everyone to to ask you when you're in an emergency, you act like it, you start taking steps that are really going to change. It doesn't need to be perfect, but you know that that's a kind of really important part. So, looking, making sure that policies are in place to support that type of radical action even if people don't see it as a radical action, it's radical and necessary um is is really important yeah, yeah, amazing, um mark.

Speaker 2:

So I just got one final question for you, which is it's quite a narrow one, so apologies, but but so. So what would you say is what would you say is the business case for doing this, aside from the other? Very?

Speaker 3:

very important aspects that we do.

Speaker 2:

Ongoing survival of civilization, yes, exactly, but apart from that, yeah, because it is an obvious thing roadblock that you will, I'm sure, come up against all the time.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think it's coming back. I mean, I think, being able to, I think we need to be fair, we need to do more work on this as well, but being able to demonstrate or link the health and well-being, the identified health and well-being benefits that come from that nature, reconnection with a reduction in impact on the health service and and kind of cost of um, keeping all of us healthy and well, I mean that's a pretty compelling business case. I don't think we've necessarily made that case as fully as we could or should have. Maybe this is the start of that today. You know um, but that that is critical.

Speaker 3:

But then I'll come back to a point I made up that nature is so critical, critically valuable in and of its own right. You know, sometimes the business case for nature is nature, you know, it's kind of, it's like it's um, it's the. You know, because when I think, and I think so, the starting point for that is helping people to, to connect with the nature that's already around them and and through that process, the hope is they do find it more valuable and they are more likely to um, uh, switch some of those priorities and and and lead to the sort of policy change the top down which supports that real grassroots, because ultimately it's only works if it all works together. You need the leadership. The policy is to be set, you need your politicians and so on to kind of really take the lead on that. But you need to create the conditions for the politicians to feel this is the right thing for them to do so. You need that demand from the grassroots to really enable that as well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, 100%. And I would say for us, as a kind of a developer operating in that kind of mid-scale between the individual and the government, I would simply say that people are happier, healthier, more productive when they're connected to nature when they're in places that are vibrant, sustainable and healthy in all senses, and that's where the business case is, I think, for us. So I think it's amazing what you're doing.

Speaker 1:

I'm really grateful for you taking the time to have this conversation today.

Speaker 2:

It's been really good. I've learned a lot, lot, and I'm sure people listening have as well. So if there's one final thing, mark, if there's anyone wants to connect with you, if they want to get involved, how does you keep this movement growing?

Speaker 3:

yeah, absolutely so. If you want to make london greener, healthier and wilder, you can visit us at nationalparkcitylondon. Or, even better, come and join our free online community at communitynationalparkcityorg. Loads of events, loads of ways to get involved. If you're in the city, pop down to see us at 109 fleet street. We're in the pop-up center here, which has been a just an amazing experiment for us. It's us, we. We run loads of events and activities here every week and, yeah, extremely welcome to come and play your part.

Speaker 2:

Awesome. Thank you very much, mark. Appreciate your time. Thanks, tom, appreciate it. Thanks.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening to the Grow Places podcast. For more information, visit growplacescom and follow us at. We Grow Places across all social channels. See you next time.