Grow Places

GP 27: Truman Brewery 10: Not Conventional Landlords: with Steve from the Truman Brewery

• Grow Places • Season 1 • Episode 27

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Join us on a special on-site episode of the Grow Places Podcast, hosted by founder Tom Larsson, as we explore the vibrant ecosystem of the Truman Brewery in East London. Recorded live in the heart of Brick Lane, Spitalfields, and Banglatown, this episode features an in-depth conversation with Steve, the site manager of the Truman Brewery, who shares how this iconic space has evolved into a thriving hub of creativity, commerce, and community.

Discover how the Brewery’s unique people-centric approach sets it apart from conventional office spaces, hosting a diverse range of businesses—from large corporations like Urban Outfitters to independent artisans and market traders. Steve reveals the daily operations behind maintaining this bustling site, the importance of fostering close relationships with tenants, and the Brewery’s unconventional yet highly effective management style.

Tom also delves into the future of the Truman Brewery, discussing redevelopment plans that aim to preserve the Brewery’s rich cultural heritage while providing room for growth and adaptation. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in urban development, community-driven business ecosystems, and the dynamic interplay between people, place, and growth.

Why Listen?

  • Uncover the Secrets of a Unique Creative Hub: Learn how the Truman Brewery supports over 200 businesses—from Urban Outfitters’ European HQ to small artisans making incense and jewelry—creating a dynamic mix of large and small, corporate and creative.
  • People-First Management: Discover how the Brewery’s unconventional approach, with on-site management and a flexible lease system, puts people at the center, fostering a collaborative environment that’s anything but ordinary.
  • Adapting to Change: Hear how the Brewery has navigated the challenges of the past two decades, including shifting market demands and the impact of COVID-19, while staying true to its creative roots.
  • Future Vision: Get an insider look at the ambitious redevelopment plans that aim to preserve the Brewery’s cultural soul while opening new spaces for growth. Find out how this long-term vision will ensure the Brewery continues to thrive for decades to come.

Tune in to learn how the Truman Brewery continues to be a pillar of East London’s creative landscape and what’s next for this iconic location.

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the People Grow Places podcast where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth and place Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, tom Larson. Today we have a special episode recorded on site at the Truman Brewery in East London, where we are excited to work in partnership with the Truman Brewery and local people in Brick Lane, spitalfields and Banglatown. Truman Brewery and local people in Brick Lane, spitalfields and Bangletown.

Speaker 2:

So here we are at the Truman Brewery and we're joined by Steve. Steve, hi welcome, hi thanks. What's your role? How are you involved in the Truman Brewery and what are you doing here today?

Speaker 3:

So I manage the site and I predominantly do sales and lettings. So I I get um people here renting space off us to run their businesses or put their events on.

Speaker 2:

Um yeah, that's it in a nutshell so you deal with everyone who's sort of trading and and making a living here yeah, in a sense.

Speaker 3:

Um, you know we're we're based here, so everyone that that runs a business out of here gets to see us me and us every day. We're not conventional landlords that are typically off in an ivory tower somewhere. You know we are, we're at work on this campus with all the people that operate their businesses here. So, yeah, we deal with them day to day and yeah, that's it.

Speaker 2:

You must see a huge range of types of business scale, size, ambition as well. As you know, have so much interaction with different people. What's that like?

Speaker 3:

It makes going to work very fun. Actually it's, you know, we feed off the energy of what people are doing here day to day. I mean, if you break down what we do, it's, it's pretty, um, it's pretty simple. We, we manage buildings and we uh, you know, we try and keep everything ship shape for people to be successful at what they do here. Um, but, as you say, we, we get to interact with huge range of businesses.

Speaker 3:

I mean, you know, on the bigger end of things, we've got, um, urban outfitters here that have got their European headquarters. They've probably got five to six hundred staff here. So we don't obviously interact with every single member of that team every day, but we, you know, we do get to interact with them. On the other end of the scale, we've got little creators here. We've got jewelers, we've got people making sort of incenses and fragrances, people running shops and other artisans. So, you know, every day is very different, dealing with different people's needs and wants. Yeah, and, as I say, feeding off what their businesses do, which you get a little bit of a halo effect off that and feel very involved in it.

Speaker 2:

And I mean you must be sort of are you involved in the making sure that their businesses can run smoothly? What does that entail in terms of understanding the layout of the space and just making you know? How does that inform the brief, I suppose as well, around the redevelopment?

Speaker 3:

Well, we so in terms of how we you know how we manage and curate what goes on here. Firstly, we understand that our buildings aren't purpose-built for typical office use. They're not conventional workspaces. This is an ex-brewery. These buildings had a different life once upon a time and they're suited to a certain kind of people. We're also, as as a team, traditionally not from property backgrounds. I mean my background's from. I'm from the music industry. We have team members from the fashion industry, um, that have done sort of creative pursuits in uni and what have you and most of us join here based on our interest in in really what? The sort of cultural events that happen here, the markets and the people that work here, rather than the business of property.

Speaker 2:

That must provide a really amazing space or sort of framework and foundation to build a brief on. Tom, Just talk to me about how you've needed to consider all of the things that Steve's just spoken about with the redevelopment.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, well, I think there's a really high bar really for what we're trying to do on the redevelopment, because this is such a vibrant, such a culturally relevant place today that any additions to that you know you don't want to lose anything that you've already got here and that you know Steve and colleagues have created and that will be. The success, I think, of the future plans is that it does feel like a continuation and it just feels like there's space to grow into in terms of the operations that that Steve and his colleagues do, and I think that's our brief really.

Speaker 2:

And Steve, how have you managed to make this space what it is today? I mean, you talk about being here on the campus every day. How have you managed to attract the right people and and I suppose, how will that be taken forward as well- um.

Speaker 3:

So, yeah, I think that a lot of it is down to to our backgrounds, um, and, and being slightly unconventional, I mean we tap naturally into our own worlds. So, by virtue of coming from certain backgrounds and certain creative industries, we we draw those, we have historically drawn those kind of people in. We obviously benefit. We have a close relationship day to day with with businesses that are based here, um, as a result, you know, it's quite a natural process that that people that are here bring their contacts, their colleagues, their friends to us. Um, hopefully, that means that they're having a good experience day to day. Um.

Speaker 3:

So we get a lot of business brought to us by people already based here, um and and our our ambition is always to keep people on site. I mean, everything's contract, everything's done on a very flexible basis so that, should people's needs change, we can always find them an alternative space somewhere else on site. We never like people to leave the site. We've got such a huge range of buildings and spaces that we shouldn't find ourselves in that position. So that's our ambition.

Speaker 3:

So you sort of have, I guess, a range of options for people to opt in and out of, according to how their business is doing, I suppose yeah, I mean the hope is that people always want to grow and take on more, but often, as businesses change or evolve, that then the needs can go in the other direction. So, whether people want to upsize or downsize, we, we always hope to have something for them. Um, that's not always the case. You know, if we're doing very well in terms of popularity, then then obviously that means that there is less space available. But, um, but we're, you know, we always try to make sure that there's room for maneuver for everyone.

Speaker 4:

And if you talk about kind of the trends that are happening broader in the office market more broadly, you know there is a move away from very sort of long traditional leases that are inflexible and don't meet businesses' demands.

Speaker 4:

Because, as Steve said, like companies change, you know, businesses grow, businesses adapt and and having a space here that you know has a sense of place, has a real identity to it that people are attracted to but then within that they can then adjust that to their needs at the time, is something I think you know as an outsider is really really unique about the Truman Brewery. That really is the stuff that isn't seen, it's not the stuff that's written down, it's the ethos, the spirit, the sense of place and how that's curated. I think that's really unique here. It's not just the offices, it's also the other uses that happen here the markets, the event spaces, the way that the outdoor spaces are activated and used and are different on a Wednesday to a Saturday. And that was something I was really curious about when we first met was to just understand a little bit more about operation. How does that kind of come about really?

Speaker 3:

I think it's really just that blend of uses that we decided many years ago to put the site to. So markets provide this going. We're standing in front of one area of that now, so we get the ability to, to, to provide all this immunity to companies that are based here. So markets can mean, uh, traditional sort of weekend activity with your, with your typical sort of stallholders and traders. It can mean people then sort of evolving up to these sort of semi-permanent food trucks.

Speaker 3:

Um, we've now got a food hall on brick lane, which is, again, it's more stall based activity, which is seven days a week now. Uh, and that all feeds into the success of, also of the workspace. I mean, you know, it's pretty unique that you can be part of such a such a big footprint campus with so much amenity on it for people to enjoy whilst at work or after work We've got bars and cafes here as well and the events themselves, just because they're so varied in type that they bring their own audience. Hence, you know, one day to the next you'll have different demographic on the site and we have to pivot and maneuver around that.

Speaker 2:

So I mean, you've been working for, I think, over 20 years, is that right? Yeah, you've been working for, I think, over 20 years, is that right? Yeah, yeah, and is there a kind of a rhythm? Um, that happens across, say, the year as well as decades is because that's something that the redevelopment would have considered as well. I'm sure what kind of rhythm happens in your day-to-day or season-to-season life here um, I mean, depending on which aspect of of the site we're talking about.

Speaker 3:

I mean, obviously, the, the, the street we've. We have streets running through the site that we've just walked down, one of them, dray walk um, so typically summer days, or spring and summer, that those, those areas are busier, get people. You know, you, using the app, we've got the luxury of lots of outdoor terraces, people sitting, eating and drinking um and working outdoors. We we activate these spaces for events as well, much more in the in the good weather seasons okay.

Speaker 3:

So it feels like you're an incredibly people-centered developer essentially or not developer but as a state that really has to get to the nub of what people need and the kind of and it's a relational existence yes, yeah, yeah, I mean we, as I say we're, we're here, so, um, so you know we, by virtue of that, we, we meet day to day all of the all the tenants here, traders from the markets, um, even events clients. A lot of the events are repeating seasonally, so you know the relationships have been formed with the organizers and the crews on those over the years. It really, I mean, it's, the energy of the site is all about the people, to be honest, yeah, and the relationships that have formed with them over the years there are very few here today gone tomorrow. Propositions in Truman there are very few here today, gone tomorrow.

Speaker 2:

Propositions in Truman Okay, tom, how does that sort of play into your vision for the redevelopment here?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, well, I think, as Steve rightly said, it's all about people and the focus on the people, yeah, and our brief is, you know, is bringing forward a redevelopment is to think about okay, well, how can we encourage certain interactions and how can we provide space that allows people to interact in the way that they want to? But we can't, we can't really do what you know what steve's talking about, because that is that is the life, that is about the place, um, and so our job, if anything, is not to stifle that, it's actually to allow the conditions for for these things to happen in the future. And that's a really, really interesting challenge. And when you know but there are tools through planning process, like you know, whether it's affordable workspace or policies such of that nature that encourage, you know, encourage places to operate in a certain way. But Truman has always kind of gone beyond that.

Speaker 4:

Anyway, it's not really about doing something strictly because they're required to, or anything of that nature. It's about, okay, well, what do people want, what does the culture of this place need, and how can, as an operator, how can that be facilitated? So we want to try and not damage. That, I think, is probably the right way to put it as opposed to necessarily thinking right, we want to do X, y and Z. That's really transformational.

Speaker 2:

Well, it feels like a long-term investment, right, it's an investment so that the Truman Brewery can then continue to function and operate in many, many years to come, decades, maybe hundreds of years. So, um, I'd love to know, steve, in your you know, in your sort of 20 plus years, what have you noticed shift, I mean, does, does it? Does it kind of work the same way it did 20 years ago? Or how? How have things shifted, you know? And maybe even COVID, how did that impact things?

Speaker 3:

I mean, yeah, there's a lot to go over there. So I mean, over the 20 years at core, we've, I think, kept to the same track. We've. You know, as Tom mentioned earlier, a large part of what we do is create the conditions for the community that's based here, whether they be market traders or whether they be big office occupiers, to thrive here. We react to their demands as much as it's strategy.

Speaker 3:

If I give you an example, you can have a market trader on a weekend that will then come knocking on your door because they're doing so well that they want to find something more permanent. They're not ready to do the huge investment of moving into a building, so they may come suggest to us food trucks and we can then build a model around them if it works within the other activities on the site. Model around them, um, if it works within the other activities on the site. So you know that, being one example, um, there's a pretty natural evolution over that time. I mean, we we didn't, you know, necessarily in every case go out and design something up, um, put it on a drawing and then try and fill it with with operators.

Speaker 3:

Often it's um the operators leading us, us into it and then us building something around them. What have we seen change over the years? I mean, obviously popularity has gone up, which brings its own kind of change. Brick Lane I think Brick Lane's kept its personality throughout the time I've been here. I mean there's still around us as we're walking. Walking now we'll see. There's still, you know, the famous curry houses, um, there's traditionally been um a wholesale business here 20 years ago, which I think probably has shrunk, but that that's. That's just down to um. You know other uses taking precedent, you know, like live shop. You know a lot of these shops were showrooms for, for old sort of leather, leather showrooms and things um which were, which were wholesalers and distributors. They were in shop units. Those things have now reverted back to being live shop fronts, which is, um, you know, catering to the public and the tourism that's going on around here, which I think is a sort of positive change over the years is what they were built for and designed for in the first instance.

Speaker 2:

And Tom, that street presence, I mean. I've heard time and time again the architects and the designers talking about enlivening the spaces. It feels like there's a really conscious effort to translate what's happening here on Brick and what has what the evolution has been in retail experience to the yeah well, yeah well, when you're talking about, you know, the, the project that we're looking at now, we're, we're all responding us as grow places included.

Speaker 4:

We're responding to a vision and a direction from tr Truman, and then everyone brings their own kind of experience into that. We then talk about it as a team, we talk about it with local people and that shapes something into a project. But, um, so, that's a really great environment to work in. It's a really great environment to to know that you're working with someone who is really long term and actually is the operator of the place as well, because, as steve said, a lot of this is actually about people. It's about the operations.

Speaker 4:

Like you know, we've got some very good architects on this and you could, you could, you could have, um, one architect design a building for for truman, who are a long-term operator, and the same architect designed, you know, the same building for a speculative developer. And if you came back in 10 years time, they would be very different buildings and they'd be very different places, even though the physical architecture is the same. And so I think it really is about the place, it's really about the community, the stuff that you don't see, which is actually what is a huge contributor to the success of the operation here?

Speaker 3:

Talk me through the stuff that we don't see. As Tom's alluded to, the historic buildings themselves, with the exception of two or three, were not built for office use. This was an active brewery, it was a pretty industrial site. So these aren't idyllic buildings for someone just wanting to come and have a, you know, a day-to-day sort of fairly ordinary office life. This is, people really are drawn here because of the energy, because of the other types of operator here. It's a sort of self um feeding machine in that way.

Speaker 3:

Um, people, you know the fact that the buildings aren't built for purpose. It means there are some anomalies there that people have to sort of put up with. Um, you know again, if you know, architects designing buildings for speculative developers would, would, would design them in such a way, um as as to give the maximum appeal on sales. You know normally to, to, to draw people in on on the initial launch of the building, whereas you know we're we're an ongoing, constantly evolving site. So what we're doing, as I as I said earlier is is responding to people's needs and changing the buildings as we go, rather than build, you know, um trying to, trying to second guess what someone needs yeah, so so then you know, the challenge that we at grow places had is okay, well, how do we take that, that aspiration, translate it into something that design teams can understand?

Speaker 4:

and then that can go through the planning process and in the usual way. And you know, in that process you do have to make some decisions, you do have to draw some lines and put some colors on plans and say we think that this use is going to go here and that use is going to go there. But that is, you know, that's an intention at a point in time, and and the planning system is flexible enough, and also the buildings that we're designing are definitely flexible enough that, over time, these things can change. You know, as life moves on, as trends change, as technology changes, as the way people use buildings, use cities changes, good buildings like the ones we're surrounded with can change, it can adapt and and then it's really about people to bring the life and to bring the vibrancy and to use them in different ways and to knock them about a bit and to rough them up and and, and that's that's life, that's what people think of when they think of successful places. They don't think about architecture, they don't think about. You know the window detail.

Speaker 2:

They think about life how they feel in that place. Yeah, and the autonomy I suppose they get and the power that they get as, um, as the public walking down the space, or as a business owner, or as a, you know, as someone who could spend money here, I suppose there's a bit more power for them as well, you know to to influence how, how the trim and brie moves going forward yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

Um. You know, as I say, ultimately it's all about us continuing what we've been doing over the last 25 plus years building this sort of creative industries community and the series of cultural events, markets, all of those um, all of those activities and um, and also continuing to respond to what people need. We never, as I say, never want people to leave here. We want people to bring their collaborators onto the site to create more of that sort of village, that community of type, and we want to always be able to accommodate them.

Speaker 4:

And that takes different spaces, spaces, different size companies, everything from smaller companies, individuals, up to larger companies, as, steve, you mentioned.

Speaker 4:

You know urban offices here and actually, you know, in the industry we talk about, you know ecosystems, which is a bit of jargon really, but it's essentially that it's saying, okay, there's a, there's a system, there's a village here, to use your expression, and, and that ecosystem is quite fragile in a lot of ways and it requires all those component parts to be what it is.

Speaker 4:

It requires the larger businesses and the smaller businesses, because they both like being next to each other. It requires the um amenity and the mix of uses, because people want to go and work in a place that's vibrant and active and they can meet their friends afterwards, they want to be close to places with greenery and and so so this all becomes part of the overall um offer, if you want to look at it on that side of things. But actually just the overall place and and that's really really important for successful, viable places and um. So, yeah, that mix we use the word mix a lot in this project project and I think it's really important. It's a mix at all levels of people, of spaces, of operations, of price points, and that's what will make it continue to be really successful so we're here here on Brick Lane.

Speaker 2:

What does this mean for you? What does this area sort of represent in terms of your work and your responsibilities?

Speaker 3:

Well, brick Lane itself isn't part of Truman's land, but Brick Lane is incredibly important. I mean, we are part of a broader neighbourhood, you know brick lane's got its own. It's famous, obviously, for the curry houses in front of us here. Um, that, that, uh, you know they bring, they bring that they've got their own drawers. So people come to brick lane just to visit those curry houses. In some cases, um, that in turn feeds into lending customers into some of the cafes or shops here. Some people that might only come because they know the curry houses will then discover the things we have within the site and vice versa. If people are coming for an event here that's drawing them from all around the country, then they will undoubtedly, in doing their research, realise where they are and go and visit the curry houses.

Speaker 3:

At the north end of brick lane as well, you've got an incredibly famous bagel shop. Um, again, some people know brick lane just for that, um, with good reason. Uh, and and between us and and that bagel shop that you you've now got you know where I? I spoke previously about some of the old sort of showrooms and and and leather, uh, wholesalers and what have you have now seemed to be evolving into clusters of um a really good vintage clothing uh shops and and other sort of fashion shops and cafes. So you know brick lane uh and us are are sort of merging into. You know a wider um, a wider sort of self uh. You know a wider um complementary um neighborhood yeah, and I think that's that's absolutely right.

Speaker 4:

And you know the, the areas of the, the trim brewery estate that we're looking at for this project, they don't, they don't contribute to that really. You know they are um underutilized areas of the estate. On large, obviously you've got some really key um users within that. So you know cash and carry you've got here, you've got, you know, businesses within the cooperage or within the boil house, so there are examples. But on large it's essentially a closed off, private area of of the the estate um or areas on, you know, ellie's yard um, which are used really well but could be used in in better ways. So I think we're sort of thinking, okay, well, how can more of the, the land uh, actually be in that spirit that steve's just mentioned?

Speaker 2:

so I mean the, the development. The development we've walked through with multiple architects and they've had to give due consideration to all the existing businesses that sit on Brick Lane. But those businesses aren't necessarily within the Truman Brewery's direct control. So it's just an interesting you know that requires it almost leans on your 20 years of experience of building relationships and developing a community feel here to enable that actually things are going to go forward.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean we, you know. In short, we just have to be good neighbours, and that works both ways. I mean, we've been here 25 plus years doing what we do. The curry houses predate that, and if it didn't work, we wouldn't have been able to exist in harmony together. So to continue, that's very important. We must consider our neighbours.

Speaker 2:

So, steve, where are we now?

Speaker 3:

So now we're in what we call Brick Lane Yard, which, as you can see, is, you know, predominantly. There's a lot of car parking here. We've actually got an event setting up over here to our left, and this is the Cooperage. So in the brewery days this would have been full of kegs being made in this building, and now this is home to, I dare say, probably 10 businesses, ranging from an art collective on one end of the building to an artisan that's making incense and fragrances, a photo studio and fashion studios all sorts of uses.

Speaker 2:

I think we should go and have a look, surely, yeah?

Speaker 3:

shall we go and see if we can see some people at work?

Speaker 4:

Great.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so let's go in and see Junior.

Speaker 2:

Oh, this is exciting. Oh, it smells fantastic in here.

Speaker 1:

Hi, junior Hi guys, how?

Speaker 4:

are you doing Hi?

Speaker 2:

Dominique Nice to meet you.

Speaker 4:

Nice to meet, to meet you. Wow, what are you doing?

Speaker 3:

here junior hey, man, you're right yeah, so junior's got a brand called cremate which creates all these wonderful incenses, candles.

Speaker 4:

Yes, yeah, big scent brand, essentially candles, yeah, candles and scents. As Steve said, room sprays, yeah, and it smells fantastic.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's what.

Speaker 2:

I'm told that's what I'm told You've sort of lost that sense as well.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, you know, being in here you become somewhat nose-blind, yeah yeah. It's been in there. What were we saying two and a bit years now?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, nearly three years you've been with us. Yeah, we actually moved junior in here, um, talking about like how people move around and stay on the site. We moved junior in here because where I originally put him I kind of messed up and the neighbors uh complained about the smell. We had him too close someone, so he's ended up in this perfect little yeah, little environment how could your neighbors uh complain?

Speaker 2:

about this smell fantastic that's great, and so obviously the flexibility of what steve's been able to do, yeah, has been really helpful yeah, 100.

Speaker 4:

I mean yeah, always, sort of, if anything needs to get done. You know it's super, super straightforward to sort of hit, steve up and, yeah, get it, get it moving, fantastic awesome check in the post yeah, keep doing what you're doing thanks for your time, junior, and congratulations on the work you're doing here.

Speaker 2:

Looks great nice, fun.

Speaker 3:

Thanks, junior. Thank you okay. So that was a really good example of you know, one of the smaller individual um businesses, um, and we'll make our way over now to to one of the other buildings where a lot of the you know the space lends itself to sort of bigger, bigger companies. You can see that end of what we do. As we can see, we're in the brick lane yard. This is one of the uses that it gets put to.

Speaker 3:

We've got an event setting up here that will run over the weekend and we're also now walking towards the boiler house with the famous Truman chimney, another one of our event spaces, and that's currently hosting the Art of the Brick, which is a Lego-based exhibition, but that's had all sorts of exhibitions, market spaces, yeah, any kind of events use you can imagine has been in there. It's one of the flagship spaces. And also just to the side of it, there, which just sort of highlights another aspect of what goes on at Truman in terms of the nighttime economy. You've got 93 feet east, which is a sort of nightclub stroke bar with a nice beer garden in it, and in between the two we have a. We have a space called the brick house which is in the process of setting up as a pilates studio. So that gives you, you know, a picture of quite a few broad ranges of uses that go on in the buildings here.

Speaker 2:

So it seems like there's a constant rotation, sort of almost across the, you know, a 24-hour space. I mean, how important is that to you know, the survival of this area and keeping this as a sort of cultural, artistic hub?

Speaker 3:

Oh, it's very important. I mean, yeah, it's constantly evolving. Oh, it's very important. I mean it's, yeah, it's constantly evolving. Um, you know when again it's, it's, it's a, it's an ongoing project. We don't see a finish line for it, which is somewhat unconventional. I think a lot of sites or a lot of buildings, by virtue, need to be built, delivered, filled, and then that developer moves on to the next project. This is our project, you know, we, we, um, leases, agreements, all those things are not lined up neatly to sort of start and end at the same time. Um, the place churns.

Speaker 3:

As I say, we're, we're some, somewhat led by, uh, the trends or what's happening at the time. You know, events themselves change. The types of events change, um, you know, historically, when I first joined here, we would have probably been predominantly smaller sort of uh art exhibitions. Those have tended to grow into bigger, um, multi-artist exhibitions sometimes, sometimes trade expos sometimes. You know, now we're, now we're moving into a phase of sort of festivals, not in the music festival type, but festivals of type. So we'll have London Coffee Festival, you've got London Design Fair. These are things that take over more of the campus, you know. So you're not just going into into, you know, a big exhibition hall with sort of divisions and shell schemes. In your typical exhibition you'll have some things activating in shops, some things out in open air spaces, some things in big exhibition halls, uh, or old warehouse spaces. So it you know the, the character of the spaces. Uh lend themselves to just a much more experience. A much more experience, a much more interesting experience for, for visitors yeah, and that's everything that steve's just captured.

Speaker 4:

There is the essence of what we were talking about earlier, about.

Speaker 4:

You know, we can set some lines down on paper, we can set some intentions down with regards to the plans for the future of the tomb brewery site, but, but these things will change and that that's a positive thing, um, there's some intentions made, but but actually, you know they, they will adapt and adjust over time.

Speaker 4:

You know, the building that we just referred to here was built as a stables. You know where you see the facade to hit then, when horses were no longer needed, when Henry Ford came along and created combustion in cars, then it was turned into a boiler house in the Industrial Revolution, and now we don't need coal-fired boilers anymore. So it's now an event space and then even on that longer time horizon, as you say, then even on very short time horizons, even with regards to like one day or one week, there's then a huge amount of change. That goes on and and this, this area, um, and also this site, is a really unique example of of how that can bring real vibrancy and and interest to a place. So this is one of your larger existing spaces here, steve, isn't it?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so this was built replacing an older building in the 70s for the brewery for Truman's, when they were actually still a brewery and this was their headquarters.

Speaker 3:

So it's probably the only real example we've got of a more modern purpose-built office block, and so it lends itself to the sort of bigger footprint spaces, larger organisations We've got a few of them in here but again we've then broken up areas of the building into much smaller incubator suites. We've got a whole floor here, uh, the fourth floor, which is dedicated to startups. They're all on very flexible um contracts, day by day almost um, and they you know we have a, we have a turnover people typically will come in to start their, their business evolution on that floor typically, and then they'll grow out into other buildings or settle into other buildings and then, sort of sandwiched either side of that, we've got two big footprint, two big floor plates. One on the top floor we've got a visual effects company with a couple of hundred staff, and the floor below we've actually got another sort of film production company of sorts and a company that rents out wonderful holiday villas in Sicily and Greece. So a real mix.

Speaker 4:

And it's all relative as well as you're saying, steve. So what Truman classed as a big business is not what other people in Canary Wharf or in the city of London would class as a big business, and I think we're still talking about SMEs small to medium-sized enterprises and within that there's then a huge variety, but this isn't a big lawyer or a big banking firm or a building that you find somewhere else in London. So, yeah, maybe let's go and have a look I think we should definitely have a look okay, so we're at, etc.

Speaker 3:

These guys are actually our newest um addition to the site um and then one of the biggest tenants as well. Uh, they're a visual effects company, so they work in the film industry. Um, pretty good example of type of people that want to come and rent space off us so, steve, maybe, as it's fresh in your mind, you say they're one of the newest additions.

Speaker 4:

Do you know why they chose here or over somewhere else?

Speaker 3:

yeah, they didn't want to go the conventional path back into soho where a lot of this industry exists. They'd already been based fairly locally in white chapel, um, and they knew the site because half their teams had worked with people on site. A lot of our smaller companies were basically using them as a facility and the staff knew the area. They wanted to be amongst all the amenity that Brick Lane and our campus offers them, so we were just a really good fit for them and they were able to create a pretty bespoke they their needs were not usual. They're not. They're not an office occupier.

Speaker 3:

As you can see, this isn't typical corporate. We don't do corporate, but this isn't a typical boring office by any stretch and they've actually they do color treatment and visual effects. A lot of these rooms are our studios that they had to build to very specific specification and we were a really good blank canvas for them. So hopefully, seeing a work environment like that and the other spaces we've been looking at around the site gives you an idea of why it's a fun place to work, even even from my perspective. I think you know we're lucky. We get to live vicariously through our tenants um creating these really wonderful spaces we get to dip in and out of those. I mean, if, if you remove all of that, my day-to-day is is like most people going to my little office and doing my work, and you know, the fact that I then get to walk into these wonderful spaces or go meet tenants in their shops or their cafes, you know, makes my workday exciting, and I think that speaks for the rest of the team as well.

Speaker 2:

I mean, it just really speaks to the patchwork of kind of life that exists here on the estate, you know, which you get to play with every day, you know, and for a lot of people is a bit of a pilgrimage, you know, but it's just that everyday sort of bricklaying existence which is then going to feed into the redevelopment. Well, thank you so much, steve. Really appreciate your time today and it's been really fascinating lifting the lid on daily life at the Truman Brewery.

Speaker 1:

Thanks. Thank you for listening to the Grow Places podcast. For more information, visit growplacescom and follow us at. We Grow Places across all social channels. See you next time.