Grow Places

GP 26: Truman Brewery 09: Change can be a good thing: with Henley Halebrown

• Grow Places • Season 1 • Episode 26

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Change can be a good thing ... Ever wondered how historic neighbourhoods evolve while preserving their character and enhancing their public benefit? 


🎧 Grow Places Podcast episode DROP - Catch it here now! www.growplaces.com/podcast

We take you behind the scenes of one of London’s most iconic sites—Truman Brewery on Brick Lane. 

Join us as we walk with architects Simon and April from Henley Halebrown, along with Tom from Grow Places, to discuss the ambitious redevelopment of Block J known as the Banglatown Cash and Carry site. This project is more than just a facelift; it’s about supporting a vibrant, inclusive community that honours the past while looking boldly into the future.

Here’s what you’ll discover:
- 🌍 How we’re transforming a single storey poor quality building into a purpose built building for various uses including affordable family homes and community spaces. Oh and don't forget a new home for the Cash and Carry.
- 🏠 The vision behind integrating new homes, affordable housing, and workspace into this culturally rich area..
- đź’ˇ Insights into the challenges and opportunities of urban development that respects both history and community needs.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone passionate about urban development, sustainable design, and the power of community-focused architecture. 

🎧 **Don’t miss out! Listen now** to discover how we’re shaping the future of our cities—one place at a time.

Let’s grow places together! 🌍

#UrbanDevelopment #Podcast #GrowPlaces #TrumanBrewery #Architecture #CommunityBuilding #SustainableDesign #London #CulturalHeritage

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the People Grow Places podcast where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth and place Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, tom Larson. Today we have a special episode recorded on site at the Truman Brewery in East London, where we are excited to work in partnership with the Truman Brewery and local people in Brick Lane, spitalfields and Banglatown.

Speaker 2:

Truman Brewery and local people in Brick Lane, spitalfields and Banglatown. So here we are at the Truman Brewery on Brick Lane, on the corner of Hanbury Street, and we're here with Henley Hale-Brown. We've got Simon and April Welcome, as well as Tom from Grow Places. Welcome, guys, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2:

Good morning, it's a beautiful morning. You've brought the sunshine with us. Finally we can do a recording in some sun and have a walk around. Tell me about who you are, what your roles are and and what kind of influence you're having here at the Truman Brewery so we're Henley Hellbrown, we're architects based in Shoreditch and we're working on the Cash and Carry site yeah, and I'm April.

Speaker 4:

I'm also an architect at Henley Hellbrown, working on the same lot with Simon Fantastic.

Speaker 2:

And Tom Cash Carry. This is a big, this is sort of a big component of the redevelopment site. It's a very important economic hub. Tell me a little bit about that. What are the considerations that we're having to give in the brief?

Speaker 5:

Yeah, yeah, it's a really, as you say, a really important site in this neighbourhood for various reasons and also, you can see, behind us here you've got the extent of what was the original brewery site.

Speaker 5:

This site is quite unique in the fact that it is slightly separated by Wizard Street from the main master plan site, and so the aspirations really for the main site is to really open that up, turn it from a closed brewery into something much more open and something connected to the neighbourhood, whereas this site actually is very prominent, it's actually very open to the neighbourhood already. So it has a set of different considerations that we're working with and obviously, as you mentioned, the current occupation is Banglatown Cash and Carry, which is a really really important local use, local resource for various aspects of the community. So we've got strategies for how we can hopefully bring forward some development, some housing, some officers which we'll talk about in a bit more detail and a long term future for the cash and carry in a better facility going forwards. But we'll kind of get into that as we get going okay, great well, should we go and have a look yeah, let's have a one so, tom, we are keeping the cash and carry, is that right?

Speaker 5:

so, in essence, the use will remain.

Speaker 5:

We're not keeping it exactly as it remains today. It's in really quite a knackered old building, you can say, and you'll see when we get down there, the site is not best utilised in terms of the height of the buildings adjacent to other buildings and what we could get on the site. So we think there's an opportunity to have a cash and carry use there, but also to have other things that are really important for the neighbourhood. So new homes, new affordable homes, new family homes and also new workspace as well as other retail units as well. So we think the cash and carry, instead of being, you know, on its own, can become part of a really vibrant mix of of uses and that will be really additive to the neighbourhood.

Speaker 5:

But, as you said, we're already really conscious that it's a really important use for local people, local businesses. So, as part of the development, there will be a, a temporary home for the cash and carry on the main master plan site, which will allow people, businesses, to use it in a similar way to what they have done to date, just in a slightly different location, and then, obviously, once this building's built, you know, if we're fortunate enough to get planning for that. Then the cash and carry will come back into its permanent home, which simon and april are responsible for designing.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, so that's a big brief, so just walk us through everything you're looking at. So what are you going to be delivering on site, or what are you designing for at present?

Speaker 3:

so we'll have a mix of 10 years of homes in in in a number of apartment buildings, um, and, and a small office building, all kind of clustered around a courtyard with some shops on the ground floor and a bit of community space.

Speaker 3:

Okay, I mean, it's an interesting, it's a really interesting part of the city because, you know, spitalfields has hundreds of years of history, from the 17th century or probably earlier.

Speaker 3:

But you know, there's a legacy, a really special legacy, of 17th century century, 18th century houses and then hundreds of years of of development beyond that and well, in culture, um, culture in every sense, I kind of should um and it's also been a, um, I guess, a kind of harbor for various communities as they've arrived in london. So it is an extraordinary place in terms of the nature of the community, but it's also, as you can just about see where we are, we've just kind of left one version of the city which is that broadly 20th, pre-20th century version, and arrived in a part of London which is, even though a few metres apart, all of a sudden completely different, different scale buildings, less kind of structured bit of city, which sounds like a very architectural thing to say, but actually, of course, it is actually what the character of the place is and it's how we, I guess the challenge has been how to work with these two uh well, all these various histories and cultures, but also with this kind of different versions of the city april.

Speaker 2:

Are you on the sort of day-to-day design or how are you getting involved with this?

Speaker 4:

yeah, so I've been involved, uh, day-to-day working with tom and with um other members of the team sort of getting project, and with members of community as well, going to consult with other members of the team sort of getting project, and with members of the community as well, going to consultations and part of the planning process and, yeah, just been involved in the design throughout.

Speaker 2:

So tell me about the design. I mean, what considerations are you giving and what are the challenges and how are you finding out solutions for those?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I think one of the most interesting parts about this site is that it's a three-sided site. So we have three quite distinct streets in Hanbury Street, here, obviously, spitzel Street and then Woodseer Street to the north, and at the moment the existing cash and carry doesn't really address those streets, particularly on Hanbury and Woodseer Street. So does that mean that there's blank walls? Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4:

So, we've got you know. As you can see, here there's quite blank walls, not a lot of openings, not a lot of activation. So one of the key things that we're trying to do is to really open up the site and we're proposing to have kind of shops and retail uses and community uses all around the ground floor, on those street edges, to sort of reanimate it and to add to the character of the existing streets.

Speaker 2:

And Tom mentioned that it's a knackered old building. What's going to happen? Is it going to get knocked down and rebuilt differently, or are you going to use the?

Speaker 4:

existing structure. Yeah, so we are. At the moment the proposal is to do that is, to knock it down and rebuild. There are currently proposals of how we might reuse some of the materials and some of the elements of the building in parts of the landscape. That's something we've we've been studying with Arup is how how we might reuse some of the elements um throughout the kind of master plan as well tell me a bit more about that.

Speaker 2:

That sounds really interesting.

Speaker 4:

I mean it's kind of ongoing, I think, at the moment, so that we the starting point is to document these things and try and have a think about how we might reuse them.

Speaker 5:

But, um, it's more of a process at the moment and I think it will kind of come out a bit more in later stages okay, yeah, it's, it's something we've looked at across the whole master plan in terms of, like, cataloging all of the material that's on site and you know I use the phrase, you know, building, which is really. You know, it's not meant to be um geography about the use or anything that people associate with this. It's really talking about the physical nature of the building like you know, if you can see from here.

Speaker 5:

You know it's not in the best state of repair now. Obviously it could, could be repaired. It could be, you know, a new roof put onto the building and other things like that. But but equally, we think there's a lot more that this site can and probably should, you know, offer to the neighbourhood. Um, it's a single-story building and, as Simon said, you know you've got really tall buildings around here. Um, there's a need for more homes, there's a need for more family and affordable homes and there's a need for for more workspace and community space. So we think that, as well as as catch and carry, this site can offer some other things in a new, purpose-built building.

Speaker 3:

You really get the sense of the energy of Brick Lane and Hamby Street literally drops off at this point, I mean certainly by the time you get to here, but it drops off at the site, and so you know it's really natural just to want to extend that vibrancy Because you know in a way, probably in time where we are now will change Inevitably. There's a pressure to make homes, affordable homes, create places for people to work and so on.

Speaker 2:

Well, we need that mixed use. We can't just have a whole lot of homes without, you know, retail space to provide people the food and sort of the entertainment and street culture that they need. What kind of retail will be placed there? Is it going to be sort of big conglomerations or are we trying to continue the Truman breweries?

Speaker 4:

So at the moment the proposal is to reinstate the cash and carry on the site. So there's one sort of larger retail unit facing onto Spittle Street. Onto Hanbury Street there's a smaller retail. It's actually proposed as a community space, so that'll be a space for community use. And then onto Woodseer Street we have another small retail unit which will be a kind of continuation of Truman's existing provision and will be an inter, so a nice little boutique sort of shop.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, I think that you know to be determined what those exact uses will be. Um, but yeah, very much in the spirit of not just truman but of the neighborhood and as we we touched on as we walked along hanbury street, you know that is a a vibrant street with with retail and shop fronts and offices and homes above, and it just really wants to feel part of that and part of that character of the neighborhood.

Speaker 3:

Really it's that's an interesting sort of challenge in a way, because when you make a building, you never you make a new building and you, you know. And the question is, how do you? You know, how do you, how do you bring continuity again, I don't want to sound, it's not jargon, but just you know, naturally, how, naturally, how do you keep the kind of patterns of life going with what we build? Because ultimately, what you build, you know, we, I guess we do think about what buildings look like, but ultimately what we're thinking about is what they're going to be like to use. You know the lives that it engenders, the kind of activities that it promotes and precipitates, and that people feel comfortable living here. Comfortable literally, sort of physiologically comfortable, but emotionally, socially comfortable because of who they are, that they belong yeah they belong.

Speaker 3:

You know who they're with who their neighbours are.

Speaker 2:

Tom, I think there's a bit of I mean, let's face the reality. This place has been under scrutiny and had a bit of I mean, let's face the reality. This place has been um under scrutiny and had a lot of community activation, activism around um fear around change. And the cash and carry is a really, really central economic and social part, if you count sort of gathering of food and collection of food as a social um activity. Inevitably, if you're building a new building, you know the rents are going to have to go up and things are going to change. In that sense, what's the economic model? Or how are we going to keep people, the same people who are coming to the cash and carry now? How are we going to keep them on that journey as we move forward over the next few years?

Speaker 5:

Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't think it is inevitable that the rents will go up.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 5:

As a direct product of the development.

Speaker 5:

Now, they might go up just because of inflation and because of other aspects, but I think, because, you know, this is still part of the tree room estate's ownership and they're very long term and they take a consistent view about how they have relationships with their tenants here.

Speaker 5:

So, whether it's relationships with cash and carry operators or whether it's a tenant within the building, there is an economic reality to building buildings and so some of the uses within this building, whether it's the homes or whether it's some of the retail units or wider within the wider projects, yeah, they will be at market rates, but that doesn't necessarily mean that every space within the development has to be.

Speaker 5:

So where there's spaces like the cash and carry, which are a really important use and that's acknowledged by all the community, it's acknowledged by us as a team, it's acknowledged by Truman then how can we try to, you know, bring them along on the journey with us. So it's not about sort of avoiding change, because actually sometimes change is good and change can be better. Taking an old building that's maybe not in best shape and putting them into a new purpose built building, you know, that's actually, in the long term, probably quite a good thing, you know, because it increases longevity of their operation. So I think, um, you know, there will be some change. That will be changes to the patterns of use, there will be changes to the access arrangements, but that's actually can be a positive thing as well okay.

Speaker 2:

So I guess what kind of considerations have been or what kind of discussions have happened with the, with the shop owners, as part of that um, you know that journey as well. Have they been able to input at all as to kind of how they, how they'll be disrupted? Is there any concern around that?

Speaker 5:

yeah, yeah, yeah. So there are obviously um. So they've been there for a number of years as a tenant and so the relationship between them and Truman extends well before the project and will extend well beyond the project. And you know, how can this become a better use for them? How can it be a better operation for them? Can having a new shop front on Hanbury Street offer the opportunity for maybe spill out onto Hanbury Street to activate the street and improve their business?

Speaker 5:

So some of these discussions are ongoing and some of that is, you know, propositional from the architects as well. It's OK, well, you know, maybe if we do create an entrance on Hanbury Street, that will activate the street in a certain way. So that's a nice thing about the process, I think, is that you have outsiders in inverted commas, such as ourselves and the architects albeit you're very local come in and sort of make some observations about a place and say, ok, well, maybe this place could sort of benefit from X, y and Z. And then there's the discussion with people like Truman and like the operators of the cash carry in the local community, who really are sort of living and breathing the place every day, and hopefully somewhere in the middle you find a really nice sort of outcome and that's the project.

Speaker 3:

And I think that's kind of what the aspiration is always for the project like this well, as you say, tom, we one one of the things about we, you know we, we react to buildings, we behave in a certain way and so you know, I guess you know the kind of the cash and carry is a fairly introverted thing and there is a shed. But if you give them something else which is more open and, as you say, tom, has probably a bit of outside space related to it, maybe there's a chance that people would drink cups of tea and coffee outside. It's like it starts to be extrovert as opposed to introvert. The basic business model may not fundamentally change, but it has a different relationship to the community, kind of minute by minute, day by day, kind of thing.

Speaker 5:

So let's April. Why don't you just talk through exactly kind of where things are going to go in this view?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, so we've designed the building in basically three blocks, so one along Hanbury Street, one along Spittal Street and then one along Woodseer, with a central courtyard in the middle which is a shared amenity for all the residents, and then one along Woodseer with a central courtyard in the middle which is a shared amenity for all the residents. What we've done is we've placed the housing onto Hanbury Street and Spittle Street and then we've got workspace facing onto Woodseer Street. At the north, the sort of taller block facing onto Spittle Street is made up mostly of one and two bed homes and that'll be a mixture of market and intermediate units. The block that's facing onto Hanbury Street is where we've got the socially rented family units there, so they'll kind of have an aspect, and then all around the building, obviously at Ground Floor, as we've said already, we have retail and community spaces proposed.

Speaker 2:

Okay, and so what kind of people who are you hoping will be able to live here when you're designing? Who are you thinking about so these family homes? Would they be appropriate for local residents?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, so we've, we've designed with that, with that in mind, of course. So, um, they're three and four bed units. They're overly, they're, you know, over minimum standards. They're really large, generous units. We've designed them so that they have multiple living spaces, so that they're appropriate for families. They all have direct access to the, either a private immunity space, quite a large external private community space as well. What does that mean? So balconies, or some of them have sort of private spaces overlooking the podium gardens, um, and yeah, and then they all have a quite a close relationship with that central, those central gardens as well, which are intended for use by all of the residents so they're looking on into a sort of central garden that it was that everyone can share in

Speaker 3:

fact, they, they, they arrive through that central space. One of the things which I think is is really interesting and really important about the scheme is that uh, often the ground floors of buildings are cluttered up with bin stores and bike stores and you know shop fronts which are I don't know. Uh got uh film over them and whatever, and what we wanted to be able to in in trying to create a really genuinely vibrant, active ground floor. Of course, you, you, um, you start to think well, how can you use the middle? So people uh get to their homes through the courtyard at ground floor and then a lot of the stuff that might be on the edges is then in underneath a courtyard at first floor. So, effectively, you arrive in a kind of split-level courtyard and then you get into the various apartment buildings from that central space.

Speaker 2:

And everyone's arriving in the same area.

Speaker 3:

Yes, everybody's familiar with the fact they're part of this community. Every day you come and go and everybody who's living and the fact that they're part of this community Every day you come and go and and everybody who's living and working around that space is, is kind of evident, invisible. You know, it's like a, it's like a theater, as it were, of of stuff going on and and it and I you know cause a problem often with kind of courtyards is people almost don't dare go into them. Cause if courtyards is people almost don't dare go into them, because if you've gone in from the street and you go up to your flat or you go into your office, then you know there's a, that's maybe all you do.

Speaker 3:

But with climate change and also just whether it's children, any age, we need to spend more time outside. It's healthy, it's fundamentally really important that buildings promote that kind of well-being, and so people are being sort of daily familiarized to that space so they feel it's theirs, they adopt it and it's not a kind of weird thing to to dare to, you know, to be, to be overlooked, because you're all part of that comings and goings every day as well as the, I'm going to sit outside, read a book, have some lunch.

Speaker 2:

Kids are going to play so there's an empowerment exercise through the design.

Speaker 3:

You get a really strong sense of ownership through just a continual natural, daily, in a way, very practical use of that space coming and going.

Speaker 2:

And we've learned that there will be increased space for play, you know, throughout the Truman Brewery as well. So I suppose that really links in to what the rest of the site of the you know the redevelopment is doing, with increased trees and public access to spaces where people don't have to pay to sit down. I think that's really important and that there'll be play areas for children. So it slightly, you know it adds a whole new dimension to the estate. I suppose encouraging people to live here as well as sort of you know shop a whole new dimension to the estate. I suppose encouraging people to live here as well as, um, sort of you know shop for vintage clothes here, as so many people think about when they think of, uh, the the area, hopefully going above and beyond the stuff that we're asked to do, I mean.

Speaker 3:

I mean housing is now homes I can highly regulate. It's like we, we expect a lot, and rightly so. It's really important, especially when people don't have a choice. But but actually you want to go beyond that and make even better homes and, and a lot often that's really to do with the dignity and the kind of just the yeah, the experience of coming and going and the what you can add on top of.

Speaker 3:

You know how many rooms you've got, the sizes they are. You know they've got lots of outside space and so, even as well as the courtyard, of course, everybody's got balconies and terraces and they're more generous than the minimum and there's places to put plants and all sorts of stuff. So you know there's a kind of natural ebb and flow to inside and outside. You know, and I think you know, we worry a lot these days, of course, about energy consumption. So we tend to think you know a lot about what it's going to be like to keep your home warm in the winter, but increasingly, what we need to think about is how to keep cool in the summer. That's right, and a lot of that has to do with the bits outside your home being, uh, you know, having space outside that you can go into, which is shady, keeps the spaces inside cool and spaces that you are useful, generous, sit out there, eat out there, work out there whatever it might be whether you're, whether you're working at home or working in the office.

Speaker 5:

You know weekends, daytime, whichever, whatever it is yeah, yeah, and that goes to sort of talking about patterns of you know how neighborhoods kind of function, a bit, I think, and we just see all of this, the whole master plan, whether it's sort of behind the current walls of the traditional Schumann Brewery or behind, you know, the site here as just adding to the neighbourhood and adding to that sense of community at different times of the day, different times of the week, sense of community at different times of the day, different times of the week and um.

Speaker 5:

So you know we're going to go down Windsor Street now and you'll see, at the moment you know you've got a really blank wall here but opposite you've got residential, a bit further down you've got commercial, then you've got residential again and then you've got commercial that's proposed. So this is an example of a really mixed street and, as Simon's saying, actually you know there's a real kind of charm to what that does in terms of the character of a place if you've got different uses and different vibrancy. But you know, it's not all about having spaces that are buzzy, it's also about having spaces that are calm and quiet and you can relax as.

Speaker 5:

Simon was saying you know, the inside space of the courtyard will be that kind of calm space that you can sit outside. But we, we think there's a, there's a, there's a nice play on sort of, yeah, the character that comes from different uses, um, and there's going to be an entrance here isn't there, april?

Speaker 4:

into the residential and the commercial yeah, so, as simon was saying, there's a kind of central courtyard at ground floor which all the residents access off of, and that'll be entered from about here. There's also another entrance to it on the opposite side too, so it's a kind of route for the residents as well, so they can access it from either street and will any of this?

Speaker 2:

um so this wall will disappear. Is that right? Yes, so there'll be greater access and um forestness, which means to be able to sort of move through something from one side to the other. Is anything going to happen to, um, uh sort of keep the art spaces, the spaces where there are chances for art to spring up in the street?

Speaker 4:

yeah, yeah, I mean, it's something we've spoken about quite a lot and obviously there's quite a few instances of it happening on the master plan site as well, where opportunities for street art, for public art, for graffiti to happen, which is such a massive character of this area, and when designing the ground floor we considered that quite a lot, so not to make it a fully glazed um you know ground floor so that there are these opportunities of a blank balling of brickwork, of areas where that can still happen on the site, because it is.

Speaker 2:

It is so important and such a big character the area absolutely, I think people come here expecting, expecting to see that um, and certainly a lot of, I'd say, the brand of Truman Brewery is photography and videography surrounded by the graffiti. I think it's a really important component. We have housing here, I notice, and have you sort of had to consider how the existing residential spaces will be informed, or inform the residential spaces that you're designing for?

Speaker 4:

the residential spaces that you're designing, for it's something I suppose we spend quite a lot of time looking at a lot of the streets around here and a lot of the patterns of the residential streets. You've obviously got, as you say, the Woodseer Street terraces. Here there's also the kind of Jordan terraces towards Faunia Street, which are really beautiful, and I think the pattern of housing around here is these quite tight street edges where houses are pressed, you know, right up against quite narrow pavements, and that's something that we propose.

Speaker 2:

you know we want to continue on on this site and so we're proposing to extend the existing building line and keep that, the same street pattern that we have around but then providing a bit of I mean something we notice about these spaces here no one's got it's so tight onto the road, you know, not just the pavement but the road. No one's got a lot of room to play with identity or a sense of greening outside their homes, um, and it's all quite, um, quite bare, suppose, at the start. So I guess providing a courtyard, an inward-looking courtyard, would be a really beautiful way to sort of green it up and soften it Exactly.

Speaker 3:

It's quite an inward-looking scheme, I suppose, in that way, because it has that central space which is so important, and every home has a relationship to that green space centrally, I think also the fact that we've got no homes on the ground floor, this equation of, in a way, the reason why the cash and carry and other kind of community spaces and reeds chops on the ground floor are important, because they're actually a part of the equation that really works, because, whilst these houses are great, there's lots of things about them that are now well. They're great because people choose to live there. But if you don't choose to live there, as it were, then there are things which are challenging, as it were, the conventions of what we consider to be appropriate homes, relationship to public space, those kind of things.

Speaker 2:

Can you expand on that a little bit?

Speaker 3:

more. So you know um for example, these days, if I was to make that house on this pavement, they would probably say that seal's too low. I mean, you can see they've put um film on the window because they're worried about people looking in privacy but it would go further.

Speaker 3:

they would say things like well, actually, can you move the facade back at least a couple of meters? And they might, although we've got issues these days of what we call level access you access, enabling people in a wheelchair or less able people to get into a home or a building now creates other complexities or important characteristics, principles, properties, buildings. But yeah, they'd be still saying things like well, actually we need to keep this home cool in the summer, so then we've got to open the windows. But if you literally open that sash window at night, you're very very, very vulnerable.

Speaker 3:

So then they start saying when you lift the sill up or in fact maybe you have to fix that glazing and put a kind of panel next to it, you can open it, and so on and so on. So it becomes complicated. You could not really make this house like this. Now, even though it's a beautiful house and this is a beautiful street, there's a whole series of things in the dna of these houses which are no longer kind of acceptable. Yeah, but you know. So that means that you know that we lift everybody's homes up, slide all this stuff, or you know, in a way just put back what, what, what's there now?

Speaker 3:

um, but also, you know, yes, the the courtyard's really green, but there's little things that we're doing to promote this idea that, in a way, although it could have just been a block building, but, as April was saying, it's three buildings and that thing is really important it's about the character of each building being associated with the street, but also they're like blocks and we leave open corners, which just brings light.

Speaker 3:

But it also allows you to start planting things or to create balconies, which again we do, and on Spittle Street there's quite a lot of open space At the moment that may or may not survive, but all the apartments there will have what we've called a kind of plant shelf. So, as well as a balcony, the whole front of their apartment, all up the up building, you've got a space about half a meter wide to put pots on stuff. So, again, you know, although we're making a building of brick, you know, in the same way, that the graffiti starts to kind of layer the facade and and bring personality and literally the personalities, the people who live around here. But in the case of an apartment, and the way you plant your balcony, it's your, it's you. The stuff you leave out the stuff you plant. That's you and that's a really important thing that you know. 50 plus families start to display. They have the confidence to say this is who we are. Maybe they're not even doing it in a self-conscious way, they're just living.

Speaker 2:

And that stuff starts to kind of accumulate to make a kind of mosaic of of um of lives sounds incredibly, um, important and really thrilling to sort of see how we can integrate family life into the Truman Brewery, uh, so thank you both so much for your time today, again for bringing the sunshine, very grateful for that, and we really look forward to seeing how the designs come about.

Speaker 1:

Thanks thank you very much. Thank you for listening to the grow places podcast. For more information, visit growplacescom and follow us at. We grow places across all social channels. See you next time.