Grow Places

GP 25: Truman Brewery 08: Local Community Wealth Building: with Volterra Partners

• Grow Places • Season 1 • Episode 25

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Discover how the dynamic economic ecosystem of East London is shaping up in our latest episode recorded at the iconic Truman Brewery. Joined by Alex O'Byrne and Peter Reddy from Volterra Partners, and Tom Larsson, the development manager from Grow Places, we promise a deep dive into the socioeconomic impacts of major developments in Tower Hamlets. Learn about the importance of nurturing a naturally evolving community within this vibrant area, where maintaining cultural and business diversity is key.

Ever wondered how local political activism and community sentiment shape urban development strategies? Alex and Peter reveal how strong local engagement and diverse opinions are driving community wealth-building initiatives. We discuss the unique owner-operator model of Truman Brewery and how it fosters long-term relationships over speculative development, ensuring support for creative and small businesses. Tune in to understand the balancing act between rigid planning policies and the need for community-focused solutions.

Finally, we explore the future of East London's development with an eye toward creating vibrant, inclusive spaces. Tom emphasizes the significance of gradual, authentic changes that cater to a diverse demographic while preserving Brick Lane's cultural identity. Hear about the collaboration with design consultants like Publica and the efforts to engage local artists and young people to maximize social value. This episode is your gateway to understanding the intricate balance between development and community, promising insights that will resonate with anyone interested in urban growth and sustainability.

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the People Grow Places podcast where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth and place Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, tom Larson. Today we have a special episode recorded on site at the Truman Brewery in East London, where we are excited to work in partnership with the Truman Brewery and local people in Brick Lane, spitalfields and Banglatown. Truman Brewery and local people in Brick Lane.

Speaker 2:

Spitalfields and Banglatown. So we're here at the Truman Brewery in Brick Lane in East London. We're sitting in Cafe 1001 because, true spring fashion, it's raining outside. We're here with Alex and with Peter from Volterra. Hi guys, welcome, hello, hello. And we've got Tom, the development manager, here from Grow Places. So, alex, tell me a little bit about your involvement in the role. Who are you? How are you getting involved in this project?

Speaker 3:

Great Thanks for having us. First of all, I'm Alex O'Byrne, I'm a partner of Volterra Partners and we're a social economic consultancy. So what we do is look at the social, health, economic impacts of major development and infrastructure. So on this project, we are looking at what the economic impact's going to be, how to support local benefits, what the need for commercial space is around here and why it needs to be in this, why here, why Brick Lane? And thinking about how we can sort of build some community wealth around here.

Speaker 4:

Peter Reddy. I've worked with Alex for a few years now and our background is really using economic theory to help think about different problems locally. So about specifically to this project, it's about how you can use the principles of economics and how you can help understand local issues through those and use them to fuel what we can build into future development, like Alex is saying.

Speaker 2:

Great. Can you talk to me a bit about the ecosystem, sort of the economic ecosystem we have here, specifically at truman brewery. A bit about east london, whether it's tower hamlets or whether it's just on site itself. Is there anything particularly special about this place?

Speaker 3:

so I guess certainly tower hamlets has got an interest in boer because it's just a complete one. One part of it's so different. You have the isle of dogs and one side which is canary wharf, with one nose it's sort of finance capital, and then obviously this part is a lot more. The sort of city fringe is a variety of different places but coming in hyper local here it's one of the most diverse parts of, I guess, london, the uk really there's. There's massive, like bangladesh english population. Population's very young. There's a real variety of people in this location. It's very diverse and specifically just in this ward where we are now, the bangladesh hospital's's very diverse.

Speaker 4:

And then so that tends to that mix of people, helps breeds the community of businesses that are then on site as well.

Speaker 4:

So then, what's evolved over time here on the estate has been a mix of spaces and the way that they're managed.

Speaker 4:

That's brought in clusters of new young, creative businesses especially, but also a wider mix of retail and leisure uses and events and all the different bits that come with them, and their onsite now is a real. We call it an ecosystem in the project team, but I think it probably does represent that quite well where it's evolved out of, from 30 years ago where the site was the brewery site as it stood, and now it's brought into the new workspaces that brought the businesses in, and then today it stands as what? The heart of one of the largest hubs of creative activity, I think, in East London and in the city fringe area, which has been lost dramatically over time. So the types of businesses that need workspace are struggling to find it in the centre of London, especially the creative ones. So sites like this are really important for helping to drive activity, and that feel of being together as part of a community is what's been at the heart of this and what we're trying to foster through the new developments coming forward as well.

Speaker 2:

So talk to me maybe, tom, about how what Peter and Alex arelex are saying the clusters, about the clusters and the need for commercial development has driven the brief from you as the development manager as well. What have you seen that's really important to deliver here?

Speaker 5:

yeah, yeah, I agree with what the guys are saying, to be honest. And um, clustering is really really important. It's kind of a natural thing that happens, you know. You get like-minded people come together and that breeds a kind of ecosystem around that, whether that's small, medium, large businesses or whether that's events or leisure activities, that kind of cluster to that. And I think truman's a definitely a uk but if not a european and a world example of that.

Speaker 5:

You know, tourists come here to visit Truman as part of Brick Lane and that vibrancy, that vitality is so unique here. But it is fragile. It's something that Truman themselves have been very mindful of. And even the notion of doing a kind of master plan in inverted commas for the project, you know, which we are doing here is very much through a lens of okay, it's quite a loose master plan that allows people to basically take that on and to evolve that and to bring life to that over time. And we're not trying to control every aspect of that.

Speaker 5:

And I think that element of a kind of an ecosystem that's natural, that can grow, that can change, but that is fragile is is really important. And then you could kind of extrapolate that actually to the brick lane, bangladesh town ward, that we're, we're, we're in um. You know the creativity, the vibrancy along brick lane um. The diversity of businesses, the diversity of trade, the diversity of cultures is what makes it really unique, and what we're trying to do here is to tread a very careful line between something that comes forward in a growth mindset, that is about progress, that is about development, development, but that does that in a way that's very authentic and that does it in a way that, hopefully, is very respectful about some of the physical, but also some of the the maybe the emotional, cultural, psychological aspects of a place that are less tangible psychological.

Speaker 2:

How do you, how do you discover that and how do you then interpret that? In economic terms or through an economic lens? What does that look like?

Speaker 3:

I think I think it's been one of the challenges for us is trying to sort of articulate that ecosystem because everyone sort of people understand the area, know and you just come here and you know that there is this, this cluster business exciting, you can sort of feel it, but I guess trying to demonstrate that it's not so easy. So we've been, I guess, trying to think about stuff, about what human estates do themselves to offer flexible leases and stuff, and how long the business has been here is like a key indicator of like how attractive it is, I guess. Um, but then I sort of think about what are the wider benefits of of the actual clustering? Clusters now drive economic growth all over the world. They're really important. If you think about some of the main areas of growth in the UK, it's the financial services. In the city there's clusters of these similar businesses that come together and they collaborate, they learn from each other, they use the same resources and make the area around it prosperous as well.

Speaker 2:

I guess one challenge for us has been trying to think about how we articulate and make, make, make it clear to the planning authority and the local community how actually important it is for for the area itself so can we get into the details, maybe about, um, what challenges you're finding and then how you're working together to find solutions, working with the existing community, and then what kind of projections are you thinking there will be in the future and who will be here, who will be using this space, and how do the people who are here still? How do they translate into that future vision as well? Is that part of the economic sort of calculation?

Speaker 4:

One of the big challenges that we've been brought in to help think about is how we best reflect the local needs in terms of economic priorities of the local communities in the future development that's going to be brought forward on site. So it's about reflecting what it is that people are struggling with locally or what are the opportunities that we can contribute to addressing existing issues through the proposed development and then tailoring the sorts of things that we bring forward to address those issues on site and off site and in whatever other ways may be possible. So things like we were originally thinking about the how we develop a community wealth building agenda on site to a group of people that have significantly lower outcomes than most of London. Levels of poverty are relatively high. Levels of destitution are quite high locally. So it's about what we can do on site to address that bit. That doesn't come out when you just look at a broad brush in the whole of the area.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, this is the really difficult stuff, frankly Difficult stuff to approach. But a project of well development of any, any scale, but particularly something of this scale for such a key anchor sort of institution if you want to call it that within the, the ward um is, is really important. But we're not sat here saying we've got the answers to that, because some of that is about the physical elements of space which you know, the types of uses, the scale of the buildings, the types of spaces, how open, accessible a place feels. But lots of that is frankly got not much to do with the buildings at all. It's about the programming, it's about the outreach, it's about the, the networks within the community and in a community like this, if you take the, the broader sense of it within the, in a community like this, if you take the broader sense of it within the Spitalfields of Banglatown.

Speaker 5:

I've been working here for a couple of years now and I'm sort of just very, very slowly trying to understand the dynamics there Truman have been here for 35 years and have a much deeper understanding, much more local understanding of that and other elements of the community. You know, been here for generations and, I think, trying to sort of not feel like we have the answers, not feel like we can walk in other people's shoes, but equally try to empathise with people and try to kind of understand that. So the work that the guys are doing, kind of sort of big picture looking down, there's that kind of macroeconomic piece, but then there's also the much more on the ground kind of socio-economic piece, kind of coming up about connections and networks that we're trying to approach through consultation, trying to approach through various sort of agendas that we've got with with local stakeholders and organizations. But it's not easy. It's not an easy challenge is it to take something from theory to practice really?

Speaker 2:

So it's kind of about community wealth building. Does that feel right? Is that sort of where you're aiming for, or can you talk to me a bit about that?

Speaker 3:

I think it's something that we're a term we're picking up on a bit because it's something that's sort of gaining a bit of attraction. I guess in gaining a bit of attraction, I guess in the development industry is community wealth. I guess the idea is broadly that you it comes from preston, originally in the uk, and it's now referred to as the preston rule, and the idea was there that they were quite struggling in economy and they wanted to sort of leverage their what they have locally and try and keep, I guess, the wealth locally a bit more. So the idea is there's work in the public sector there the council wanted to procure locally. They wanted to make sure the local jobs and skills opportunities people were being paid a fair wage, there's good work and that sort of model works fairly well there and it's actually gone quite global in terms of it.

Speaker 3:

And this is the idea of community wealth building that tower hamlets have now picked up as one of their key priorities. But I guess the way there's not loads of detail about how Tower Hamlets want it to be delivered yet, which is quite good, because it's been an opportunity for us to think about what it means here and one of the key ways you sort of it can be delivered is through so-called anchor institutions, that's, places like universities and councils, but also like I think treeman fits that perfectly in terms of being a major employer locally. There's an opportunity to for truman, set a great example work with partners, work with the council to think about how we procure, how local jobs are supported, how we work with education institutions and stuff like that to sort of keep a bit more wealth locally. So I guess personally I'm quite excited about like developing this community wealth building, because it's not it feels to me quite nebulous concept at the moment that people have sort of opportunity to actually define and use it locally is there a way that truman will buck the trend?

Speaker 2:

I mean developers and new developments are. You know, there's this concept of NIMBYism and they're often sort of feared and not engaged with as highly as they ought to be. And we all in the built environment wish that you know there were high levels of engagement and that people had time and passion. I mean, we've seen a lot of passion happen, you know, across the years to kind of keep this place as it is because it supports so many, so many in such a diverse range of people and people. No one wants that to just go away overnight. So what's special about this place from a sort of economic perspective or the solutions that you're finding? Are there any specifics that you can give us that get you kind of?

Speaker 4:

Maybe not from an economic perspective, but from a social perspective there's definitely the strength of feeling locally is enormous.

Speaker 4:

So this is one of the most politically active places in London, if not the whole of the country.

Speaker 4:

And then how that is reflected in the actual economic policy making is quite important as well.

Speaker 4:

So the actual makeup of the place is what is driving a lot of the new policy that's being brought forward, especially the community wealth building side of things too.

Speaker 4:

But it's all about how you can capture that strength of feeling locally and then as well as the actual objectives for change that are being brought forward out of that. So at the moment there's a lot of consultation work that's been going on by the council and a lot of consultation work that's been going on at Truman about how you can involve those opinions and evolve those people's feelings and characteristics into something that might mean, might move development in one way or another way. So for Truman that might be things like it might be the education piece making sure that we know that people have been brought, it's been brought out through that strength of feeling that there's a community that's being left behind and then saying, well, here's an opportunity we can do that. Economic policy tells us that this is the lever that we can pull to do so. So, therefore, we're going to tailor this development to do that that way to do so.

Speaker 2:

So, therefore, we're going to tailor this development to do that that way. Wow, and is that sort of how does that fit into the wider piece of the design and all the sort of what you've tried to deliver, what you'll try and deliver here, does that influence and impact the design at all?

Speaker 5:

yeah, no, I think it does. Um, I think it does impact the design, but I don't think the design is the highest thing in the priority list with that. I think it's actually more the relationships, more the people side of it than the physical building side of it. But what I would say on that point is that you know, truman themselves have been here for over 35 years Sorry, when I say Truman I mean the current sort of stewardship of the place and they're very long term. You know this isn't a speculative development where we're trying to sort of get in, get out. It's very much an owner-operator model. Hence why they're working with GrowPlace as a development manager to bring that development skill set. But they are an owner-operator, so they're looking for a very long-term lens and I think that does give a unique perspective. That means that hopefully the things that we're talking about now at planning stage they don't just become very well considered planning documents that kind of go on a shelf. They actually translate into meaningful impact and value for people.

Speaker 5:

Um, but you know, that's the, that's the glass half full aspect. I think we should be open and say that. You know, that's the, that's the glass half full aspect. I think we should be open and say that you know, it's challenging as well. But with that history, with that legacy, comes um strength of feelings, strength of relationships, which which means that it isn't always as simple as someone walking in would would have you kind of think. It might be to kind of unlock some of these things, and and that goes to everything the guys are talking about. So you know, I don't know what, what do you guys see as the, as the? You know, how do we turn theory into practice in a really meaningful way?

Speaker 3:

so I guess one thing that comes to mind is one one of the ways they've built this ecosystem has been so effective is is having sort of that flexibility of how we deal with tenants and community. At the core. So from what I understand is there's lots of flexibility of tenants. They work them day to day to say, you need to expand space or you need to downgrade it, that's fine, we can accommodate that if you can't afford it for this time. There's flexibility around that, which which is really important for particularly sort of creative businesses and businesses that are growing and small businesses in particular. So I guess the issue of planning policy and stuff like that is they often want fixed answers to go into the legal agreements. You want to deliver this at this level, but being able to have that flexibility is really really important. So like making sure that that can continue and how, making sure that we can continue to work businesses and continue to work with partners to build on opportunities to grow where they need to, to take opportunities to work with stakeholders who are delivering like local jobs, opportunities and training locally.

Speaker 3:

I think that's a bit of a tension sometimes in planning that it tends to be quite fixed and structured, whereas actually what you need is to build in some flexibility, like, for example, with like affordable workspace policy, which is quite common in london now driven by the gla. It's often a requirement to find 10 of the space at I don't know 50% discount, and the key driver for that is really to support charities and creative businesses lots of the stuff that is already happening here without the policy. So what, what, what? The issue, the ultimate potential issue with that could be that the requirement to provide it at a fixed level, at a fixed discount, where actually, where actually that flexibility is better and they're already providing affordable. So yeah, my view is there needs to be a bit more trust and flexibility, sometimes to change.

Speaker 4:

It can often be like someone signing a piece of paper with a contract that says this term is the baseline, but in reality, when you've got somewhere like this, that has a completely different concept than what can be written down on a legal piece of paper, that is a difference between practice and theory. That is really relevant.

Speaker 2:

What do you mean by a different concept? What's different?

Speaker 4:

Well, like Alex was saying, for the affordable workspace, normally you would write down, you go into policy and it would say you need to meet these sorts of conditions and it might be the amount of space, it might be the sorts of fit outs and it might be the affordability level, whereas here you've got space that's on site that isn't in that way, in a policy sense, deemed affordable because there's no one's ticked a box on a contract that says it is. But in reality you go to any one of these businesses and you talk to them about what they need for a space and they would say exactly the sorts of spaces are here. It's about flexibility to upgrade and downgrade. It's about somewhere that they can go to an older building on site and pay slightly less money, or they can go to a bigger space that is slightly more expensive if they want to.

Speaker 5:

It's about having that um, acknowledging there are different needs and businesses rather than something that can just be put into one line, single line of a contract, so less of the tick box and actually, yeah, going beyond the tick box is really important what does that mean for, like you know, aside from just the workspace, you know different uses, and not just for truman, for for wider economy here, the other businesses that are on Brick Lane that maybe benefit from some of the economic activity that happens on Truman's site.

Speaker 4:

Brick Lane at the moment. There's a lot of work that's been done recently, especially through different ways of consultation. There was a Beyond Banglatown piece that came out not very long ago that goes and talks to the local business owners and says what are your challenges? That you're facing? And at the moment the real challenge along Brick Lane is to make sure that there's a sufficient supply of space that's able to meet the Brick Lane businesses so it might be the curry houses and also make sure there's a scale of activity there that can keep them supported in the long term.

Speaker 4:

So one of the key bits of information that came out of not only that report but current engagement where it's going on, that's ongoing from a council is that there is now a lack of distinct night time pattern that goes down brick lane at spittle fields. So one of the there's a clear relationship there. You've got the truman brewery site that has all the different types of uses that draw people into event space. You say, whether it's rough trade records on site or all sorts or so many of the different community spaces that can be rented out, that there's an interrelationship there where you've got businesses saying they need a specific sort of footfall activity and then a site that's literally next door that can deliver that activity, and it's just about unlocking those two things so talk, talk to us a bit about that nighttime economy piece, because I think that's a really popular sort of concept that's happening.

Speaker 2:

We need to support, you know, nightlife music, late night theater, clubs, all that kind of stuff. How does that fit into the economic modeling here and how can it be further supported with with this redevelopment?

Speaker 3:

so yeah, so this historically this has been a really important area for the nighttime economy.

Speaker 3:

It's like you come here during throughout the year and it's normally quite buzzing and like particularly nighttime.

Speaker 3:

It has venues and bars and stuff that attracts lots of young people. It's quite a exciting area. But I think, looking into some of the evidence, some of that is an indication that some of the nighttime uses have sort of reduced demand quite a bit and it's gotten a bit quieter, particularly following covid when obviously lots of businesses struggled, um to sort of recover through that. So I guess economically it's really important to to make sure I guess people spend here throughout the day and attracting people throughout the whole day is really important to deliver that um, and I guess it's just the in terms of, like the vitality of the area. It's making sure that there's all different uses which attract different people throughout the day, from workers going to cafes, from clubs and night uses and curry houses, all sorts of uses that make sure it's vibrant and safe and attractive place to to be really yeah, and I wonder, maybe summarizing the, where that fits into tom's point about what's the local economic impact.

Speaker 4:

Is that the economic activity that's unlocked by the site is one part of that. Then the second part of that is about the extra benefits of what is happening at the businesses that can benefit local people. So it might be the employment opportunities that are in different businesses. Say, the creative industries are awash with different training programs and mentorship programs and apprenticeship programs that can directly target some of the people that have challenges at the moment finding employment and struggling labour market outcomes. And then another point about that is how you can use, say, the supply chain opportunities, the actual links between businesses. So there's a piece on economic activity on site and then there's a piece on how you can link the businesses on site better to the local community and different residents as well.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, no, I agree it all ties into kind of like the cultural significance of brick lane and what that does to visitor numbers. Yeah, um, because the business numbers, the footfall, as well as the kind of the regular population of workers, of residents, um, that transient population is really really important to the vitality of the place, to the significance of it and to the maybe overall brand of the place, which maybe doesn't sound quite right, but I think you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 3:

Sense of identity yeah and your point earlier about it being fragile is an important one because it's it's based on such a sort of the idea that there's so many small businesses are attracted here and it has that all the amenities around it that attract, make make it a place that people want to work. So this is the issue Some places in London, places like Canary Wharf, are getting less attractive in some measures at the moment because they don't have that amenity in the culture, which is hard to create from scratch. It sort of just emerges a bit. So making sure that continues is really important to, yeah, keep the sort of identity of the area. Yeah, yeah what about?

Speaker 2:

how does truman? Is it symbolic of anything that's happening in london in the wider scale? I mean, I know we're desperate for housing, but that has a lot of issues. You know planning policy and and government sort of understanding the nuance of how we have to manage and negotiate the built environment. You know people want housing here. Is there a sort of how do we discuss that in a sort of sensible way where actually, you know, would housing be beneficial here or does it need to be about propping up the night-time economy and making sure that people can sleep at night? You know if people are drinking on the streets or going clubbing and any. You know does that argument come into it at all?

Speaker 4:

you know the sort of the, the pressure from from the top, as it were we have might be good to frame that in terms of the, the wider city fringe policy that's in place at the moment is the promotion of commercial, and the reason it's the promotion of commercial is because the commercial has faced a significant pressure from residential. Residential is the the massive demand across east london, whole of central london as well. So the question is not is residential beneficial on site? Yes, residential in central london will be beneficial, anywhere you put it is the question of how to balance that. Where do you put it and where can you put that best? That has a relationship with businesses.

Speaker 4:

So this site has the. I think the key conclusion to come away is this site has the background. It has the creative business cluster that's going on. We can bring in residential onto that in a sensitive way that doesn't disrupt that and we need to bring in new businesses on site into a way that can help address the needs of more businesses in the future. So it's about finding that balance between residential and commercial and other uses as well.

Speaker 2:

What are you imagining that this place is going to look like in how long? Are we talking? Five, 10 years time?

Speaker 5:

Yeah, so well, from my perspective, I think the success of uh well, a success of lots of place schemes, but particularly this one, is the fact that it you never feel like it's, you never feel like it's changed, but then you also feel like it's changed, if that makes sense. It's a gradual thing. This isn't one day it's like it is now. The next day it's a completely different place. That would be a failure. So that goes to this kind of fragility of the place thing. We should be growing it, we should be adding to it, but in a way that feels almost sort of second nature and authentic to the place into people's lives and just kind of adds, improves people's quality of life along the way. And it is a journey you know the physical aspect of the buildings will take, yeah, as you mentioned, you know, over the next, you know five plus years, but actually that's just the beginning, you know. Then there's the occupation of the spaces. Then there's how those spaces change, how they evolve over time. You know we're sat in cafe 1001, which is in a building that's over 100 years old, that was built as a warehouse for a brewery, that's now a cafe and record shop, and we're sitting here filming in it, and that kind of vibrancy is what makes places really successful, and Truman are a great example of that. They are fortunate insofar as they're long term, they're really long term. They take a very um, considered approach to that. I say fortunate it's also by design, but all that does allow is it allows some of these different uses to to happen.

Speaker 5:

Um, and if I think, then the the key is that how does Truman become a site for a more diverse community? So, yes, the focus is very much about maintaining, preserving the creative cluster here and all of the vibrancy and the benefits that come with that. But we should also be honest and say that that is for a demographic of people. And this project is also about how do we kind of open up the site. How do we make it a place for a local mother and baby on a Saturday morning to walk through, maybe to get a coffee, but maybe not to spend any money, just to sit underneath a tree and take in the neighbourhood? So we've got quite, quite high bar on a number of different criteria here, but I think it's trying to do that in a way that that preserves and enhances what is unique about this place and grows that in a way that is additive to to the place as a whole. Really so, yes, residential. Yes, commercial. Yes, open space. Yes, places you can buy things.

Speaker 3:

Yes, places where you can just come and and not consume I think I completely agree because I think that's the really important aspect of really trying to understand the area itself.

Speaker 3:

So we've been working with publica um, who are sort of design consultants.

Speaker 3:

They're fantastic and they have a really good understanding of what sort of community facility, what cultural facilities are nearby.

Speaker 3:

We've been working really close to them to add the sort of data on top of that to say this is what the local population is, this is the demographic split, this is the ethnic makeup, this is how they use the area, there's types of jobs, and that sort of combined understanding of the area is a really good base to then sort of say this is what's missing. Publica have done some great work on that, saying this is what community facilities are missing, and again, I think that helps what we were saying earlier about making sure there's lots of stuff throughout the day. So it is a dynamic area because people are coming with their kids to go to the park or they come in to go to a cultural gig or they come into a community facility and so understanding what's missing and what the area needs is the teams and someone's been really pushing it what understand that evidence-based underpins all that work can you talk a bit more about the details, what, what is missing and how's?

Speaker 2:

how is that going to be delivered?

Speaker 3:

Tough question. I think Publica's work is quite strong on that. In terms of the mix of community facilities that's required. I think what they're showing is that there's a few gaps, and having sort of flexible spaces that can potentially be used for a few different things is one strong way to potentially resolve that, and I think that's part of the way the design is going. But also places that can be used for free or be used by anyone is another important part of their work and how we're thinking about it.

Speaker 3:

Not just spaces where you need to spend. It's sort of these third spaces where you need to spend. It's sort of these, these third spaces where people can just spend time without any pressure, and it's all different groups, different types of people. So it's it's thinking about those spaces that are not just for one certain type of people. You're sort of hips, the coffee shops, you know. It's sort of the spaces that could attract all different types of people and different ages and different cultures and stuff like that is the challenge and making sure that's flexible enough so it can change over time as well acknowledging that we don't have.

Speaker 4:

So, like tom said, we don't have the answers to things like this, so it may be that we don't know what people, what is missing in five years time, which is this building, or where this whole site won't be built out until the late 2030s. So it's about making sure that you have the spaces that can respond to what people will need in 10-15 years time so how can you, how can you use sort of um economic model?

Speaker 2:

do you model that on sort of, how do you do social, how do you do social value? Or how can you measure that now for the future?

Speaker 3:

I guess the way we tend to think about social value is a bit different to the sort of standard measurement frameworks, and I guess we think about in the terms of what the benefit can be for the communities in simple terms.

Speaker 3:

But I guess it's sort of saying, within the site and beyond the red line itself, how does the development engage with the area and think about what would we, what we're going to commit to that wouldn't normally be required, what, what's additional and what's sort of relevant to the development.

Speaker 3:

So, and leaving, leveraging the strengths of the development itself too. So I think there's lots of ways you could potentially commit to social value in developments I've seen which don't necessarily relate to the development itself. So here there's a big strength is that sort of creative aspect. So I think that's a key aspect of how we think social value should be delivered is in terms of make sure you work with schools and that the mission of like, creating a purpose through the arts, is a core part of that, because that leverages the strengths of the of the space itself. So I think that's a really important part of delivering that social value is building on your existing strengths rather than trying to, yeah, measure something from nothing okay are there any other questions that the audience would you know, any other things that the audience should know at this stage?

Speaker 4:

You guys, there's probably maybe one piece that we've not touched.

Speaker 4:

So on, the creative cluster piece that we talked about in a lot of detail, on what the site is the real motivator for what we now need is the missing link, is extra space for artists. So the standard relationship that's happened in London over the last few years is that we've had artists move into workspace, gentrify a neighbourhood, get priced out of a neighbourhood and then have to move outside of the centre of London first, then to Shoreditch, then to further away, then further away, then further away, and so the final final, back to the point about what's missing that can help be delivered on site. I think there's another point that is about how to. How do we meet the needs of the artist community in the future as well? That, so it's about the local community, it's about the artist community, it's about who, what will the users be on site? And that's been, I think, central to the whole master plan, the whole scheme that's been brought forward as well. And what's been, I think, central to the whole master plan, the whole scheme that's been brought forward as well.

Speaker 2:

And what about generational considerations? I mean, you mentioned that there's a lot of young people here from certain backgrounds. Is that a specific cluster? I think you use the word. Does that factor into the future? Because that is the future, isn't it? Whoever's young now is going to be, you want to kind of keep them here, or do you not want to keep them here? What's, what's the game plan with that?

Speaker 4:

there's a real wealth of young people that's around here. There's a real wealth of talent and educational opportunities and you've got the site, which unlocks business opportunities. So it's about how do you take the young people of today that are local, local people, have a variety of different skills, and how do you use the site opportunities with the ecosystem that we talked about, with different businesses, to generate future change where they come forward in 20 years and say actually, I'm going to start my own tech business or I'm going to start my own creative music agency or recording studio or whatever it may be that they have the skills to do that and the space and facilities to do that as well that could happen locally at truman and that that is exactly what truman in my opinion.

Speaker 4:

I think that's exactly what truman is about. I don't know if that's fair yeah, no, I agree.

Speaker 5:

And it brings you back to all of the stuff that isn't strictly about the physical aspects of the place but is very much reinforced by that, because that you, you could draw a, you could draw a line around the Truman Brewery and you could speak to certain members of the local community, particularly Bangladeshi community, and they would say, well, okay, well, that that bit's just not for me. You know, I'd kind of go around it, I'd never go through it. You know, there's nothing there for me, and that's not about the buildings, that's in part about the spatial relationships, about the fact it's not active, and what our project's doing is helping to open up that. But the physical opening up is only part of that. It's then much more about outreach, it's much more about programming, it's much more about that's almost that intention really to um, to to create something that feels opened, and that that's the that is.

Speaker 5:

Again, I say it sounds easy to do, it's not easy to do.

Speaker 5:

There's there's a number number of reasons why, you know, things are the way they are, um, but that's the intention, and I think that's the stuff that we can't necessarily control.

Speaker 5:

But all we can do at the moment is have the right intentions and I think that is, you know, from the operator's perspective, from our perspective, from the team. It's something that we are thinking about talking about through the consultation, but very eyes open to the fact that you know that that has to be something that just happens naturally over time, with kind of step by step, little moves, building trust, building engagement, um, building awareness, um, so that someone in a local school not only feels like they can come here, but they feel like there's something for them, and time will tell as to you know how that transpires over time, really not just for truman but for the place and the neighborhood as a whole. And it's a challenge that all places, all neighborhoods have really um, but I would say it's probably it's, it's heightened here, um, yeah, so I think I agree, because I think it we're trying to think of a framework so it enables that flexibility to deliver that.

Speaker 3:

And one example is this idea of a sort of social value coordinator, as it might I'm not sure the exact name yet, but it'll be a sort of potentially a dedicated role, maybe part-time role.

Speaker 3:

They would work with the end tenants and this year we don't know who they'll be yet, so that again it's built, trying to build that flexibility to work with that those end tenants, to sort of say, and they'll have a really good relationship with the local community as well. And they'll say this this is what jobs are required at the moment, here's what's on offer, these are the vacancies that we have. Here's the local schools, and this is particularly what sort of um curriculum support they might be be required or sort of here's their that. We know they're having a um, an open day today. Could you come and speak to it? And an outreach and tell them about what's going on. So I guess it's that that, what potentially that dedicated role could be really important for delivering some of the outcomes and making sure that they're aware and the tenants are aware and everyone in the building is aware of what's going on and how you can work with the community.

Speaker 2:

Great Sounds good. Thank you, alex and Peter. Thanks for your time, thank you very much, you've been really enlightening. Thanks, Tom no worries, no worries.

Speaker 5:

Good to learn all about it.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for all your efforts, as always.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening to the Grow Places podcast. For more information, visit growplacescom and follow us at. We Grow Places across all social channels. See you next time.