Grow Places

GP 24: Truman Brewery 07: Continuing 350 Years of Adaptable Industrial Heritage: with Carmody Groarke

• Grow Places • Season 1 • Episode 24

Share episode

Welcome to the Grow Places podcast, where we delve deep into the symbiotic relationship between people, growth, and place. In this special episode, recorded on-site at the historic Truman Brewery in East London, host Tom Larsson is in discussion again with another key team member from our ongoing redevelopment project.

Discover how the plans for the existing Cooperage building (Block K) and a new Block 1 are doing just that with Lukas Barry from Carmody Groarke. Join us as we explore the creation of new adaptable workspaces, vibrant retail environments, and new community art space and micro-brewery on the east of the site fronting Spital Street. Lukas dives into the design and purpose behind these innovative spaces, revealing how they will support creatives and local people while preserving the rich industrial heritage of the Truman Brewery.

Our conversation delves into the intricacies of the master plan, striking a balance between honouring the site's 350-year-old industrial history and fostering new, dynamic frontages to existing streets and new yards. Learn about the challenges and opportunities of integrating these new developments into the existing urban fabric, and how sustainability features like timber frames and natural ventilation are at the project's core. 

Key Highlights for Built Environment Professionals:
- Heritage and Innovation: Delve into the intricate process of restoring the Cooperage, which includes a community art space and a micro-brewery, rejuvenating the brewing heritage while adapting for modern use.
- Advanced Design Techniques: Gain insights into the design and construction of the new building on Spital Street (Block 1), featuring flexible, modern workspaces with integrated retail spaces aimed at fostering creativity and collaboration.
- Sustainability Focus: Lukas reveals the sustainable strategies employed in these projects, including the use of timber frames, natural ventilation, and adaptable layouts to ensure low carbon footprints and long-term usability.
- Urban Revitalisation: Understand the strategic approach to opening up the once-private brewery site to the public, creating vibrant, accessible spaces that serve as social hubs for locals and visitors alike.
- Economic Revitalisation: Learn about the incorporation of small retail units to support independent businesses, contributing to the economic vitality of the area.

This episode is essential listening for built environment professionals, including architects, urban planners, and sustainability experts. Tune in to gain valuable insights on how the fusion of past and future is creating spaces that foster community, creativity, and sustainability.

For more in-depth information and updates, visit growplaces.com and follow us on social media @WeGrowPlaces. Don’t miss this engaging episode that promises a comprehensive dive into the evolution of urban landscapes.

Keywords: Grow Places, Truman Brewery, sustainable architecture, urban redevelopment, East London, creative workspaces, heritage preservation, community spaces, environmentally conscious design, built environment, Carmody Groarke.

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the People Grow Places podcast where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth and place Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, tom Larson. Today we have a special episode recorded on site at the Truman Brewery in East London, where we are excited to work in partnership with the Truman Brewery and local people in Brick Lane, spittlefields and Bangletown. Truman Brewery and local people in Brick Lane.

Speaker 2:

Spittlefields and Bangletown. So here we are, back at the Truman Brewery, we're here on the corner of Spittle Street, just outside Allen Gardens, and we're here with Lucas from Comedy Grok. Hi Lucas, hello Hi. Thanks for coming back and joining us on a drier day where we can do some better recording. So tell me a bit about your role at.

Speaker 3:

Comedy Grokok, but also your role here at the Truman Brewery. Yeah, so I'm Associate Director at Carmody Grook. We've been involved in designing two buildings as part of the master plan. Those two buildings are one new building, a workspace, and one existing building, which will be a refurbishment of the cooperage.

Speaker 2:

Okay, and where's that going to happen?

Speaker 3:

So that's just over here on Spittal Street. We've got the cooperage in the middle and then there's a gap site where our new building will sit alongside.

Speaker 2:

Okay, and just remind me what's happening in that new building.

Speaker 3:

So that building will be basically a workspace.

Speaker 3:

There'll be retail, um, and some community space and ground floor and then basically modern, uh workspace which will be aimed towards the kind of creative, um, kind of industries so the workspace will reflect the sort of the vibrancy that we tend to associate trim and brewery with yeah, I think that, um, you know, part of our ethos is to continue the kind of creative spirit of reusing buildings here, making buildings that are very easily adaptable and that can support lots of different kind of creative uses, or even, you know, making things like the Ruri did before.

Speaker 2:

Cool, so there could be artists working in spaces here.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely, I think that we think of it kind of a little bit like a modern warehouse. Absolutely, I think that we think of it kind of a little bit like a modern warehouse, something that could support people. You know painting, making things, you know sculpture, even even to. You know digital work. So I think that the spaces are not going to dictate what. You know how people use them.

Speaker 2:

I think they're going to be very flexible, very easy to use and adaptable over time, and I guess a warehouse style kind of fits in with how we think of the existing Truman Brewery buildings as well, having you know, given its history. So you know, how does that then meet with the other areas? How does it sort of sit in this redevelopment site? What's going to happen on the ground floor?

Speaker 3:

So on the ground floor of both buildings buildings, there'll be lots of vibrant uses, um. So in the cooperage, um, there'll be a kind of uh, basically a community art space, um, and also a brewery space.

Speaker 3:

So we're literally bringing the brewery back to the truman brewery site fantastic um on on the other building that that will be new next door, uh, there'll be retail, there'll be some kind of cafe, restaurant, uh, spaces, um, and they're all kind of. They're all, I think, um, in the spirit of the master plan, they're making vibrant spaces at ground floor so it's going to feel really energetic, um and very, I think, accessible great and retail.

Speaker 2:

Is that sort of smaller boutiques or is it a large?

Speaker 3:

yeah yeah, it's so. It's absolutely in tune with the rest of the master plan. Uh, relatively smaller units, which I think would probably kind of uh support independent uses. Um, so, you know, the, the spaces I think are not going to uh feel too, uh too large. They're going to. They're going to, I think, support the kind of uses that are already here in the area.

Speaker 2:

And you mentioned a brewery, which is really exciting, so does that have anything to do with this existing space that was made?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so this is the Cooperage. The Cooperage is one of the historic buildings on the site. This is, you know, cooperidge itself is basically a space for making barrels. Traditionally, cooperidge is where people would physically make wooden barrels for the storage of beer. Obviously, that process has changed over a number of years, but what's really interesting about spaces like this in the brewery is that they've all adapted over time. Even though this was specifically built as a as a space for making barrels, it has kind of evolved and has been creatively kind of reused. And that's really, you know, that taps into that spirit of what we've been trying to achieve with, you know, our new spaces, and it's very much in that, in the ethos of reusing and making buildings adaptable over time.

Speaker 2:

And supporting craftsmanship as well. It feels like If you're making space you know creative space for artists and artisans, as well as retail spaces for them to potentially sell their wares and then you're sort of bringing you know the history, I suppose back, because at the moment it doesn't feel like this is a building that is very well used yeah, well, I think that, um that that might be the impression from this side.

Speaker 3:

It does. You know, you can see um that the architecture is quite formal here.

Speaker 2:

Um what does that?

Speaker 3:

mean so well from a, from a kind of architecture perspective, this building is quite kind of carefully composed on this, uh, on this street edge, um, you have a relatively flat facade with a, with a central passageway which was where the horse and carts would have been delivering the barrels to and from the brewery itself.

Speaker 3:

You have two sets of windows that are basically symmetrical either side, so there is a kind of compositional formality to this building which is actually very different to the interior of the brewery, and that's something that one of the characteristics about how the brewery kind of sits at the moment is it has this kind of quite polite and consistent edge and actually the interior is very different, and that that is really, I think, one of the interesting kind of historic characteristics that we've tried to bring into the architecture of our new building.

Speaker 3:

Actually, when we talk about that on the inside, I think that one of the things that we're definitely conscious of is that the building feels very closed at the moment. So we very much want to bring some vibrancy to either side of the passageway so there'll be new activity on both sides as the passageway is opened up. And I think one of the critical things about the master plan as a whole is that we've recognised that the Cooperage plays a really significant part of the kind of historic memory of the site as a as an industrial site, and so we're we're very much keeping the passageway as one of the primary pedestrian routes through and into the site, so maintaining this building kind of in situ, giving it a new lease of life, but very much using it as kind of one of those historic kind of reference points for the rest of the master plan yeah, as well as lucas says.

Speaker 4:

Um, historically this was a really important entrance to the brewery, but the it hasn't been a brewery for 30 years. So this street you know we're on the western side of spittle street now has pretty much been inactive and closed as far as the brewery extent goes, for 30 years. So any people living in these residential homes here have never really sort of felt that they can access the brewery.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, they've never felt like there's a route in here and by brewery you mean the Truman Brewery, I mean the brewery estate. I don't mean yeah, I don't mean the brewery.

Speaker 4:

I mean? I mean the land that is part of the Truman Trewbury estate that we're trying to open up and this is a really key move. It's quite simple. It's actually opening doors, but it's kind of literal and metaphorical in terms of what we want to try and do here and bring people into the estate, particularly from east to west and in from the residential neighbourhoods. So it feels much more accessible and has a front. This way it's not going to be as vibrant, it's not going to be as busy as brick lane, and that's right, it doesn't want to be. There's quieter, there's people living here, but it should feel like you can actually access the brewery from this side, you can use the public spaces, you can use the, the facilities that can be provided and if we're making beer here, presumably there's going to be a bit of a beer garden right.

Speaker 2:

There has to be somewhere to sit and drink. So you know, this feels like it's going to become quite an important social space as part of the redevelopment.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think when we see the building from the other side, we'll be able to get a sense of the kind of public spaces that are being created as part of the master plan, a sense of the kind of public spaces that are being created as part of the master plan this building plays. Actually, this building and the new building next door are both in a position where they essentially address new public yards. Um, so, you know this, this building obviously sits as the backdrop to one of those, and the, the little micro brewery that we're doing in in the ground floor here is going to play a key part in how one of those spaces is activated. So I think it's very much kind of using this building as the the kind of social kind of reference point for how some of those spaces are going to work yeah, I think, and just just to add to that, as lucas is saying, let's talk about, you know, the outdoor space and the vibrancy on that side.

Speaker 4:

I think on this side, it's also important to recognize, kind of the character of where we are and yeah, and we do anticipate that this will be a calmer street, it will will remain quieter and and also we're not talking about a sort of abuser or like a late night drinking venue here. We're talking about a space for production, yeah, a space that is about local craft and making, yeah, and that that happens to be beer. Yeah, and there probably will be a sort of a small tap room associated with that where people can can have a drink and and sit out and experience the space. But we're we're not anticipating, you know, putting a, you know, a late night pub or boozer on this side of this, the street next to the residential.

Speaker 2:

So it would be a social space for gathering, but not necessarily an interruption to those who are living here.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, and there's lots of examples of them around East London but other places as well, so all that action is going to happen inside here.

Speaker 2:

Should we take a look in the space?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, it's actually fortunate today that these gates are open because, again, these gates are often shut. This is an existing loading route in and out of the site which is used by, by truman and, and we want to retain that as well in the proposal, so that we're now at the site of lucas's new building that you talk about. But there's an intention to retain some form of access route through here, but it to um also have a street presence and a frontage and sort of fill in this gap in the street.

Speaker 3:

Really yeah, I think that that's. That's one of the important moves of the the master plan, certainly in terms of this, this building, which would be called plot one, um, so we're you know, we intend to essentially complete the street frontage here. So you can see that there's a residential building just to the south of us here and the cooperage there. That is kind of part of essentially a very typical London terrace, and we thought it was important to essentially contain the energy within the master plan and kind of almost give this street the sense of protection that I think it already has. So it is quite a quiet street and the building will effectively be a buffer between the two. The new building is essentially taking the same kind of massing heights and same kind of building forms that are already here, referencing those in a kind of particular way. That I think does a really good job in making a consistent um streetscape, which is, I think, really important when you recognize that the character here is very different to the interior of the master plan yeah, exactly, and maybe let's.

Speaker 4:

let's now move inside, which, again, this isn't, this isn't a route that people can or would take currently into the site, but in the future there will be the ability to move through. And now we're back in what very much feels like the private yard space of the brewery which we've talked about.

Speaker 2:

That's right. So there's never really any public access. Private yard space of the brewery which we've talked about, that's right, so there's never really any public access. This is often full of white vans coming in and out as they deliver goods to the various buildings here in this central yard. But all of that will change. There'll be public access and there'll be spaces or hubs. You spoke of two yards. Can you give us an explanation on that.

Speaker 3:

The master plan has been a collaborative process where we've very much looked at the kind of pattern of how buildings have existed on this site for almost 300 years. It's been a very kind of tight, granular perimeter and the buildings in the middle have kind of existed as per the kind of industrial needs of the brewery. So there were buildings that were kind of lean-tos and there were sheds that were located within this yard space and obviously now you get a real sense of the scale as it. You know, apart from the kind of temporary thing that they're doing here, you can really get a sense of the unusual scale. Apart from the kind of temporary thing that they're doing here, you can really get a sense of the unusual scale.

Speaker 3:

What the master plan recognises is that the kind of relatively tight yard spaces that you'll see kind of essentially around the Truman Brewery itself and particularly part of post-industrial London sites, is that there is a particular energy that you can create from kind of basically making those spaces quite compact sites, is that there is a particular energy that you can create from from kind of basically making those spaces quite compact.

Speaker 3:

What we're doing here and in reference to the cooperages, that there'll be a new yard space here, cooperage Yard, and there'll be a new yard space over here which is Black Eagle Yard, and those two form a kind of pivot between two of the key entrances in and out of the site. So again, using the Cooperage as one form, a kind of pivot between two of the key entrances in and out of the site. So again, using the cooperage as one of those kind of key reference points is that backdrop will be completely maintained. We're going to lightly refurbish that one, but the new building essentially sits as the kind of point where it addresses two new yards, and those yards will have slightly different characters. They'll all be connected but there'll be a different character to each, obviously activated in different ways by the various buildings that sit around and create those yards.

Speaker 2:

Talk us through those characters. I'm curious about that.

Speaker 3:

A lot of what we're doing is trying to bring back a sense of, I think, industrial. There is an industrial reference point that I think is being used throughout the master plan and the landscape design, I think, is taking some of those clues. We're going to be using things like existing cobbles that we're kind of taking from elsewhere in the brewery and laying There'll be new planting. I think that's really important in making spaces that feel um more diverse in terms of their kind of environment so there'll be more shade shrubs and trees, more shrubs, more greenery.

Speaker 3:

I think that you know a lot of this is trying to make spaces that feel like they can be used for lots of different ways. This is not just people standing in the street. Um, this is people, you know, families. This is the community that feel like you can come and, you know, sit there on any given day, and I think that the you know, the landscape is going to be subtly different as you move around.

Speaker 2:

Okay, and what about the character of the other yard?

Speaker 3:

So Black Eagle Yard is a slightly different character in that it's the kind of termination point of new dray walk which is just over here okay, so that's part of one of the first phases of the truman's um kind of uh master plan idea and that will feature more, I think, retail.

Speaker 3:

So there'll be more retail, some a bit more uh food and beverage offers. Um, our building will sit as the kind of uh, the kind of end point there, so there'll be a new yard that I think very much feels like it is focused towards hospitality. Um, there's independent shops and I think that will feel very vibrant. It may change slightly more over here, where the the feel might be more open more of a yeah yeah, park kind of yeah, yeah yeah, and it's worth pointing out that that the black eagle yard is part of the previous permission.

Speaker 4:

That was that as part of the Woodlands Street permission and Lucas's building here, block 1, as we've said, and the Cooperage. They're on the boundary of where this project that Pro Placers are working on with Truman starts and the one that's already consented ends. But, as Lucas says, says we're still trying to sort of complete the jigsaw in that sense integrate everything together pieces.

Speaker 3:

It's quite a tough, um tough challenge because you have to kind of almost anticipate what, um, what will be the the, you know, the energy and the feel of that um. Obviously it's not. It's not um implemented yet. So you're very much you're anticipating a certain kind of a certain way in which that space will behave, and obviously we're trying our best to make the building kind of, you know, address two different sides and probably two different feels and at the same time stitch everything together.

Speaker 2:

Well, we're so close to central London transport hubs here, we're so close to really important sort of commercial zones and office spaces, it feels like a very logical process to activate this sort of space, and what I mean by activate is, of course, invite more people in spaces to sit down, feel comfortable and have some social time together, as well as providing space for artists and space for boutiques.

Speaker 4:

I think all of that is absolutely right and I agree absolutely with what you're saying. And some of those kind of big picture decisions as to why you would develop this site make a lot of sense. But then when we're talking about for local people and local communities, it then becomes about okay, well, what does this really mean for them and for their daily lives? And we've kind of talked about some of that on spittle street, about the fact that we're going to open that up, but the character's not going to change too much.

Speaker 4:

but you know, behind us on the site of lucas's building, we're kind of all stood next to uh yeah the centralized waste facility for the Truman Brewery, which, at the moment, you know, if you had a blank sheet of paper, this may may not be the the optimum place to put it right next to people's flats. So, as part of the project we're, we have a strategy to to relocate that, yeah, somewhere else within the brewery which is away from where where people are living, and then we can bring forward something that is hopefully a better neighbour as well, a much better neighbour.

Speaker 3:

I think that you know the visual amenity of what we're doing I think is going to be a vast improvement of what's here at the moment. I think you know the architecture of this building has to be kind of very multidimensional. So, as I said on Spittle Street, you know know that elevation has to be a bit more polite, a bit more consistent with the streetscape what do you mean by polite?

Speaker 3:

well in in the the buildings have a kind of particular line that I think is already established. You know that's a, that's a historic line that feels like um, uh, it shouldn't really be interfered with. It feels like it's a consistency of one building to the other and and actually the gap in the site is is one of the irregular parts of the site and actually, you know, creating that infill is one of the you know, one of those reinstalling that consistency of streetscape. I think the character on this side, as I said before, you know, epitomized by the Cooperage, which has a very different look and feel on this side, you know I described it, as you know, epitomized by the cooperage, which has a very different, uh, look and feel on this side. You know I described it as um, you know, more composed on one side.

Speaker 3:

Here the building is essentially made up of lots of different, uh, kind of components. The ground floor has been opened up and changed over many years. You can see that there are different beams at different heights. You know that irregular character is actually really interesting. We like that, um, we want to. You know, we, that irregular character is actually really interesting.

Speaker 3:

We like that, we want to, you know we want to work with that and, you know, in some ways celebrate that the building that will be its neighbour now is going to have a very particular form that responds to those two different yards and creates, I think, a much better relationship with its neighbours because of that. So the building form will be quite figured. It won't be a kind of consistent edge, as I said before. It will be much more angular, responding to those different conditions. Particularly on this side, you know we've been very careful to make sure that the building gives as much light and air as possible but, crucially, a better visual amenity. So there'll be green roofs, there'll be lots of biodiverse planting that will be pretty much all over the building on its various terraces. So a much better visual amenity for the neighbours next door and hopefully a much more vibrant kind of ground level because of that.

Speaker 2:

I mean I can see that people's home windows open out onto this waste facility.

Speaker 3:

I can imagine it can be quite challenging, yeah smells, noises, all of that visually as well.

Speaker 2:

So anything would be an improvement, I assume. So then, just back to this building here. This building here. It looks like a historic building. Is it listed? Do we have you know? Is it got any sort of um?

Speaker 3:

it's. It's a good question. So the building is not um, not listed um, it's um. It is, however, a very important um, historical um as I reference point for the rest of the brewery. It's been adapted many, many times over its lifespan. We know from some of the historic information, and certainly you can see the kind of residual difference in the brick tone. That's actually where there was a building kind of previously attached a lean to, as I said. So the process of making barrels in that building were brought into a space that was essentially open air, you know, rolled out into some of the yard space filled with the beer and brought out again.

Speaker 3:

This building has, you know, consequently, been adapted so many times. It's its current use as kind of creative workspace is is very much in tune with what we've been talking about. Is that, uh, flexibly and, you know, making them quite unself-conscious. So the buildings don't tell you precisely how you can behave in them. They let you kind of do whatever you want and I think when you, when, if you ever walk around the, the existing offices in there, you'll see very much that the spaces are used, um, in lots of really interesting ways and I think that that you know that's really what we're kind of drawing inspiration from for for the new buildings yeah, yeah, and I think, as you say, lucas, you know, the cooperages are really, really, really interesting and important building for the site.

Speaker 4:

Yes, it's not listed, but it's. It's really great. And then you've got the boiler house, which is where, obviously, the iconic truman chimney is. But then, if you look around the rest of the site, I don't think many people would have too many complaints about, you know, the the quality of these sheds or this waste compactor being replaced with some really well designed, really well thought through buildings that are flexible and adaptable. So I think, actually, as far as development sites go, actually what to keep and what to look to reuse or to recycle was, you know, we got that quite quickly as a team, didn't we for this?

Speaker 4:

and obviously retaining the cooperage is really important. Um, the other thing I think is quite nice about you know this has an identity the cooperage. You know it's not been placed to make barrels for minimum 30 years, probably longer, because the technology would have changed. Um, similarly, the boiler house, you know that's not had boilers in it for again a similar amount of time. But they have an identity because of that. So at the moment we're talking about block one and we're talking about block two but three, which is, you know, they're not the most personal names or or they won't be the eventual names, but how can we kind of bring character and bring familiarity to the place through, um, how these buildings are named and how they're occupied, and these are just some of the things which we think about as a team but actually go well beyond the brief of planning.

Speaker 3:

Um, they go into life and to operation and and how these places are kind of humanized over time, how they I think that what's what's lovely about um brick lane in general, and particularly about the Truman Brewery, it's it's been adopted by a kind of community that has grown ever since the current owners have have kind of um have uh, owned the site.

Speaker 3:

You know that buildings have been adapted, as tom said. You know their industrial uses have fallen away but they've been reused in really interesting ways and I think you've, consequently, you've got a really strong sense of community here that has grown with the brewery. Um, you know, I think we we've recognized that some of these buildings don't provide a lot of sustainable uses over a long period of time. You, you know they're quite particular to certain uses that the brewery had before, but they don't particularly support much in the future. So we've said, ok, well, let's use what we've got and use that spirit. And you know, in some way I think that the kind of idiosyncratic nature of what we've got and how we're working around it will, I think, hopefully, uh, inspire a new kind of adaption of these spaces, very much in line with how the how the other buildings have kind of grown into the consciousness of london life this is an investment for the future, is that right?

Speaker 4:

yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think maybe just a sort of final point on this, I think, is this I think the success of this project will be that the community that Lucas has just mentioned, the people who work on the brewery site, come here and visit, that they feel as excited about the future of this site as the local residents or local businesses do outside the site residents or local businesses do outside the site and then that is the success in the future is that these, the various aspects of the wider community, but also the, the particularities of of any one group, kind of opens up and it feels like a place where all can enjoy. And I think that's that's really the aspiration here for the project well, especially if we're introducing new homes and and additional workspaces.

Speaker 4:

There has to be a really good place for everyone to mix comfortably. It's the way that the spaces are enlivened and how they're accessed and how you can just kind of come into a space and enjoy it and not necessarily feel like you have to buy a T-shirt or have a beer or something. You can just kind of experience those spaces.

Speaker 2:

You can sit under a tree.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, like that sort of transformational nature that we just described about Spittle Street never really feeling like the brewery to it, feeling like the front door to the brewery. That's a really nice transition that hopefully this project can bring forward.

Speaker 2:

And talk to us a little bit about your new building. It'll be a new building, so what kind of considerations have been given to making it as environmentally consciously sustainable as possible?

Speaker 3:

Well, yeah, I mean we're really interested and passionate about making buildings that are sustainable. I think the opportunity that we have on on our new build site is that we have quite compact site, and I think what that means is that we can we can very much use as low carbon solutions as we possibly can. So we have predominantly timber frame building um, which is, which is great. Um, we have, uh, we have um. Because of the relatively shallow floor plates that are created by the compact size, we can very much promote natural ventilation, so that very much decreases the demand on any mechanical needs and it means that users can, you know, literally do things as simple as open a window and just activate their own spaces and find their own comfort levels as they see.

Speaker 2:

And have a sense of control over that.

Speaker 3:

Exactly, the building will be orientated in a particular way, with certain shading devices over windows to essentially limit as much as we can heat gain. And you know, all these are all kind of passive environmental ideas that I think go together to make a building that I think will be, you know, firstly, very low, low carbon in construction, but very low carbon in its use over its lifespan. I think the other side of sustainability is designing buildings that can be very adaptable. Think the other side of sustainability is designing buildings that can be very adaptable. And you know I've just said that you know buildings that are able to kind of see a lifespan past their first intended use and, as the buildings have proved on the site already, you know, the buildings that last for a very long time and prove to be adaptable tend to be the ones that are more sustainable in the long term. And we've designed our building so that it can be adaptable in that same spirit. So you know there's nothing to stop that building being adapted into different uses over its lifespan.

Speaker 2:

That's right. There's no need to knock it down, because people can use it in different ways for different functionalities.

Speaker 3:

It's that kind of modern warehouse kind of idea that you start with something that can be flexible and I think as patterns of work or the economy or social life changes, the building should be able to kind of tolerate those changes through its kind of primary structure.

Speaker 4:

And I think that's very much how we see the building operating yeah, and I also just to add to that, I think the you know, in a situation where there's a climate crisis, you know people actually fundamentally ask well, should you be building new buildings? But actually this is an example where I think absolutely yes, like this is a brownfield site, it's very well connected. Yeah, it's underutilized, as lucas said.

Speaker 4:

You know, there's a gap site here from where buildings obviously have once stood, and these are the places that we should be building buildings, whether that's refurbs or whether that's new, and then, once you know that's kind of established, then it's really on the creativity of, you know, designers, designers like Lucas to then say, okay, well, how do we do that in a really responsible way? And some of those measures that Lucas just described?

Speaker 2:

So there's going to be an added sort of social and possibly economic argument, as it were, for having something new here, because it will be so well used and because you're going to design it so well that you know we can use it for another hundred, two hundred years potentially, yeah, well, the.

Speaker 3:

You know there's something about looking back in. You know, the the site has been a brewery for you know 300 or so years. This, this has been a site of industry for a very, very long time and I think that the you know, the um, the current custodians of the site, very much see the kind of continuation of that. I just see us as being a kind of you know, just another step in just the site's industrial use for the next you know 100 or so years, and I think that's a really nice way to think about spaces like this. I think, as Tom said, it's incredibly well connected. It's already very busy, you know the site is so well used elsewhere, but this is incredibly contrasting. It's very kind of secluded and it's very private and I think that opening up that site will be a really great benefit to a space that is already a really much loved part of the community, you know, from visitors to people that already live here.

Speaker 2:

Well, it's giving private land over to the public again, isn't it? It's allowing that access. Well, that's fantastic. Thank you so much, Lucas. Thanks for your time and walking us through that today.

Speaker 3:

My pleasure.

Speaker 2:

It's a complicated sort of system, but actually you've made it sound really simple and very excited to see what the results are. Thanks, guys.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening to the Grow Pl podcast. For more information, visit growplacescom and follow us at. We grow places across all social channels. See you next time.