Grow Places

GP 23: Truman Brewery 06: Making Places Work Well for People and Planet: with Arup

• Grow Places • Season 1 • Episode 23

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Dive into our latest conversation with Angela Crowther and Letty Lucy from Arup on the groundbreaking redevelopment of East London's iconic Truman Brewery. Discover how sustainable practices, community impact, and innovative design are helping this historic area to grow as a vibrant urban space.

Unlock the secrets behind transformative neighbourhood scale regeneration! Angela, an expert in structural engineering and environmental sustainability, and Letty, a specialist in social impact and community benefits, reveal their multidisciplinary approach to fostering a biodiverse and accessible environment in Spitalfields and Banglatown.

🌍 Get inspired by their vision for a vibrant, adaptable, and sustainable future:

  • Inclusive Design: Learn how design principles shape outdoor and built environments, balancing aesthetics and environmental responsibility.
  • Community Engagement: Discover the importance of on-the-ground research and continuous community interaction to meet local needs.
  • Sustainable Practices: Hear about innovative approaches like microclimate studies and sustainable design principles that ensure environmental comfort.

🎧 Podcast Highlights:

  • Angela shares insights on leading a multidisciplinary team to enhance the public realm and buildings.
  • Letty emphasizes maximizing social value for local residents and the broader Tower Hamlets economy.
  • Explore the synergy between diverse architectural opinions and continuous community interaction.

Key Quotes:

  • Angela Crowther: “We’re making this site and the public realm and the buildings the very best that it can be, having an impact across all of the different factors that contribute to a place.”
  • Letty Lucy: “It’s not just about the core economic impact, but also how it can affect the day-to-day lives of the current people who live near the site and the future users of the site.”

Join us as we walk through the historic Brick Lane, uncovering the secrets behind transforming a historic site into a vibrant urban space. Gain valuable insights into the multidisciplinary approach that fosters a biodiverse and accessible environment, enhancing the vibrant essence of existing communities while introducing beneficial changes.

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the People Grow Places podcast where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth and place brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, tom Larson. Today we have a special episode recorded on site at the Truman Brewery in East London, where we are excited to work in partnership with the Truman Brewery and local people in Brick Lane, spitalfields and Banglatown.

Speaker 2:

Well, here we are back at the Truman Brewery, at the top floor of number 91, brick Lane. I'm here with Tom from Grow Places, angela and Letty from Arab. Hi, everyone, welcome. Hi, thank you for coming out. Tell us a bit about what you're doing here at the Truman Brewery redevelopment and maybe where we're standing as well. Okay, shall I?

Speaker 3:

go first. Yeah, so hi, I'm Angela Crowther. I'm a director at Arup and I'm leading our team across the breadth of all our disciplines and really, I think, at high level. That means that my job is to make sure that we're making this site and the public realm and the buildings the very best that it can be, and that's having an impact across all of the different factors that that contribute to a place. So, from structural engineering of the buildings and MEP engineering, through to fire and transport planning and logistics, through to ecology and making sure that we're making it as biodiverse as we can, thinking about all the environmental aspects and then bringing in inclusivity of design and thinking about how we make it accessible and really maximise the social value and knit it into the wider area. Is that your?

Speaker 4:

specialism Leti. Yeah, exactly so I'm Leti Lucy. I'm a Senior Social Impact Special specialist at arap and we've been commissioned to develop the public benefit statement for for the whole master plan site and that really, as angela said, it really focuses on what the scheme can deliver for local people, the local community in a broader sense, but also the economy of tower hamlets itself as well. So that really macro lens. But I think it's important that it's not just the sort of core economic impact. It's also how it can affect the day-to-day lives of the current people who live near the site and also the future users of the site, as well.

Speaker 2:

So I mean, your scope is enormous. So it's the buildings, it's the actual impact of those buildings and all the spaces in between. So we're probably going to be walking around a lot today, but we thought we'd start here at 91. Tom, you're using this building quite a bit, but what does this building sort of signify in the development Physically? Is it located in the middle? Where are we at the moment?

Speaker 5:

Yeah, so we're at an amazing vantage point here across the Truman site um, this is one of, if not the tallest kind of occupied floors within the existing Truman um, and our development proposals are equivalent in scale um to this. So it's a really good um gauge of that. We also get an amazing aspect down over the majority of the main site which we can we can talk about in a bit more detail um, and I think here you can really see just how sort of central this site is um. You know, we're 10 minutes walk from liverpool street station um, but we're in a really vibrant, diverse neighborhood of spitfields, banglertown, and then we're surrounded by, you know, you can see white chapel, you can see all gate um, and you can see how those different kind of city neighborhoods um respond that are on different scales um, and what you appreciate here, you know, looking out over the rooftops and seeing the life and the variety of the city um and the kind of the grain of it, is really really exciting. And then you see these large brewery buildings that have been here, for there's a brewery on this site for over 350 years and it is a kind of industrial and employment hub in the center of this kind of urban grain is really, really exciting. So I think it's a great place, great place to start the discussion from up here and then, um, just sort of circling back on.

Speaker 5:

You know, the arab role you mentioned.

Speaker 5:

It's really broad and um, I think a lot of people maybe don't appreciate or understand that the variety and the depth of roles and specialisms that go into a project, this scale and complexity, and um, arab are, you know, amazing at each and every one of those roles.

Speaker 5:

But I think that the the great thing from the client's perspective about working with arab is you, you get that umbrella, so, you know, under angela in this case, is kind of overseeing all of those disciplines, um, so it feels coherent, it feels considered. Um. And then, as you know, viewers of this will have seen, there's a number of different architects on this project as well, and that's really exciting. It's really great for celebrating the diversity in the industry but also trying to create a vibrant place that feels rich and varied, as opposed to just one hand. But behind that we've then got, you know, our business consistent layer across all of the the, the buildings and the spaces, and maybe we'll touch on some of those kind of principles that then inform the different buildings as we go. So, yeah, it's a really, really interesting conversation and role that we can talk about today.

Speaker 2:

So we've got this fantastic vantage point here, right in the middle of the development. Talk us through. Can you point a little bit to sort of where you might be having an impact and anything that's coming out from the ground that we can have a look at from here?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so shall I start To the east of us. Here we've got the main brewery yard and you can see straight ahead. There's an existing building called the Cooperage, which is really wonderful I hope you've had a chance to go inside it and then the very famous truman chimney building and all it's associated what were originally stables and then converted into a hopper for the brewery um, where a lot of the processes were done when it was a live brewery a bit later. So I think that's that happened at the end of the 18th century. And then the yard itself, which is a bit piecemeal and very much a working yard still that's used and full of industrial sheds at the moment. And so really this is the landscape for the main part of our master plan, and it's about identifying and understanding how we can really celebrate and make more of those wonderful existing assets.

Speaker 3:

But how do we then turn what is just one massive yard into a place that really people are going to come to, want to come and inhabit, and is more than it currently is?

Speaker 3:

And for us a really big move in that was first of all to say how do we make that public realm really enjoyable for people?

Speaker 3:

So we've done a really interesting piece of work around microclimate and how you make the outdoors comfortable. So making sure you get enough sunlight in the space, making sure that when it is hot and sunny with climate change it's not too hot and sunny and people stay shaded and relaxed and cool and can enjoy being outdoors. And then thinking about things like how do we service those existing new buildings on site? Because if you're not careful, actually you've worked really hard to create a great public realm and then you just end up with vehicles tracking all over the place constantly so people can't sit outdoors and enjoy it as an environment. So working really, really hard to say do we minimise the number of vehicle movements? We need to come and service our site without compromising any of the building functions? And then how do we consolidate that into an area of site so that we can make those yards vehicle free, so that people can just enjoy being in that place and enjoy all the events and vibrancy and respite and quiet spaces that we're?

Speaker 2:

aiming to provide. Do you know what that looks like yet? Have you sort of solved those challenges, or is that something that needs to happen down the track?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's been a really massive focus and I think it's a really good example actually of how that technical thinking needs to happen before anything else. If you do it as a bolt-on, at the end that's when mistakes happen and accidentally, your nice seating is having to get moved so a vehicle can come through all the time. So I think that's a lovely example of all of your major principles of how a place functions should really happen before you then form the buildings around them.

Speaker 2:

Okay, and so I mean, you mentioned these principles. Can you kind of just touch on those for people who might not sort of understand everything that you've had to consider that goes into this? What are those, you know? Is that about the light and the noise? And this, you know, is that what you're sort of? Those are the principles that you're considering.

Speaker 3:

I think that's a really nice way of putting it.

Speaker 3:

And yes, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

I think if we sort of zoom out and think about design and the built environment, actually over the last, however many years, maybe there's been not quite the focus that there could have been in terms of the outdoor spaces and public realm and making sure that feels part of its wider environment and then that the places themselves feel comfortable and everything they can be, that people want to to feel enjoyment of space and that that is enjoyable in an inclusive way for people like you and I and people with other really diverse needs.

Speaker 3:

So I think what we're thinking about in the outdoors is really how do you make that experience of place really wonderful for everybody? Then, when you move to the building design themselves actually maybe that is where the focus has been and bringing back into balance the yes, but you don't make a place comfortable by just throwing everything at it. How do we come at it from a? You've got to do this in an environmentally responsible way and start with first principles of let's make the buildings great and comfortable, but let's do it by opening the windows and making them naturally ventilated.

Speaker 5:

let's do it by using the minimum amount of material that we can, so that we're being responsible to the planet and really bringing those considerations back to the fort yeah, I think, um, any of us who work in the blue environment, we do so because we're passionate about buildings often, but obviously the spaces and the places that we're creating.

Speaker 5:

But what you realise is that the majority of people's experience of the place isn't necessarily of the buildings. They're kind of the backdrop to the experiences that people have and to the memories that they make and to the you know, the friends that they meet in a certain place and and, and that's much more experiential, that's much more environmental. Um, so, trying to think about what is it like to sit on a tuesday in january and have a cup of coffee, versus a saturday in july and have a cup of coffee, versus a Saturday in July and have a cup of coffee? How does a space feel at night? How does it feel in the day? And what then? Thinking about the built fabric, how can we then maybe design those things or tweak the design to improve that quality of life, that experience for people?

Speaker 4:

yeah, and I think, just building on Angela's, your point about inclusivity, I think what we're trying to do here is it's about thinking about those different user groups and thinking about how you can make this place comfortable from a sort of physicality perspective, but also welcoming you want people to kind of come through. Often people see a sort of perceived barrier or threshold and they think, well, you know that that isn't for me or there's nothing there for me. But actually what we're trying to do through the public benefit statement is sort of make sure that we're embedding this in the community and that people feel that they are welcome and they can take advantage of the opportunities and the kind of amazing things that are going to be taking place on the site. So that's part of our brief as well and something that we're working hard with with both the sort of architects from a physical perspective, but also how the spaces are used, how they're activated, what goes on inside those buildings as well. So it's about drawing people to the site, making sure that they feel welcome there.

Speaker 3:

And building on what's already here, right? I think yeah. If I think back to when we introduced this project to the arab team and across those sort of 20 plus disciplines that we're we're thinking about in depth, the glue that everyone was so excited about was this area and exists. It's an amazing place and it's all about evolving and building on that without losing the essence of what is already really special.

Speaker 2:

And talk to me a bit about how you understand the makeup at the moment of people. Who are the people that you want to build on Because they've got to be looked after first. Right, we're not always guaranteed that there's going to be a future influx of people. We've got to retain who we've got here. So who are those people?

Speaker 4:

yeah, I mean absolutely, this is not a blank canvas. There's a huge, vibrant, you know, diverse population that already lives, works, kind of is, is. This is home to so many people in the spitalfield in banglatown area and it's an important hub as well. You know, know, you've got the cash and carry on site, for example, and that's a really key part of the Brick Lane business community and so we're certainly not sort of assuming this is a blank canvas and we're here to understand the local needs of those local residents, local business owners, the stakeholders in other community groups and other organizations as well. But we're also trying to think about the future users as well. So, you know, future tourists, future workers, future residents, you know there's gonna be new homes built on site. So what do those residents need and how do they, how will they meld and how will they blend with the existing communities as well, and and how can we facilitate that and bring those groups together? So yeah, we're thinking about all those sort of user groups.

Speaker 2:

How do you? This might be sort of lifting the lid, the secret sauce, but how do you find out? You know so. Are you down on the streets asking people, or is this sort of reporting that you know you, as a 20,000 strong sort of company, has access to? You know, how can I know that what you've got, the information that you've got is, is right on who's here?

Speaker 3:

that's a great question. I mean, actually we have literally been walking streets and colleagues and other practices have been doing so as well very much from that social perspective. We've been doing it, for example, with things like how do vehicles currently get around and how many vehicles are using it and how busy are some of the surrounding streets already? How do we prove that we're going to have a positive impact with our future moves? So we definitely get down on the street and count as simply as that, and survey so that we understand what's existing now and then can model and predict and build and analyze in terms of looking at the future proposals.

Speaker 2:

And the redevelopment as it stands and how you want it to look. How does that fit into wider plans, either in a similar sort of area or with London? How does this fit in with what we want from our cities? You know, what can people expect from this space in 10 years time, for example? That goes, yeah, actually, we've done this right, you know. Is there anything that stands out for you?

Speaker 4:

yeah, I think, just picking up on something you said, you know, we, what do we want to see? And actually for us it's about what does the community want to see and what can this site be for the current and future community as well. So we sort of have to extract ourselves from that a little bit. And that goes back to your question earlier about how do we know what local people want or future users want. And that's about, you know, we triangulate sort of statistical stuff, we look at local policy and kind of local consultations that have gone before and we also, you know, we do have those conversations with local people through engagements, through meetings with community groups, community organisations, stakeholders in the council and things like that. So we bring all of those views, insights together to really understand, sort understand, what people want from this scheme and how it can be an exemplar of development and of master planning in London.

Speaker 4:

So it's it's certainly not our choice of what happens here, it's very much what will be the best for this area and I think, as we've said previously, this is already such a huge hub and such a huge iconic part of London and part of this particular area in London and I think, just building on that existing sort of principles of what Schumann Breweries is all about, because I think there's a lot of great stuff that maybe people aren't aware of about how Schumann Estates look after their tenants, maybe people aren't aware of about how human estates look after their tenants. You know there are lots of existing tenants already here and how do we work with them and what can we do to evolve the scheme and make sure that it's as kind of bustling and vibrant and exciting as possible for new people as well?

Speaker 3:

I think that's spot on and I think actually again back to the existing buildings on and I think actually again back to the existing buildings. They're a fantastic example of then translating those principles and what we learn about place and the future of people's needs into design. A lot of it is about thinking long term and making sure that it can evolve and adapt and is flexible enough and loose enough as a design that you're not stuck with something today that won't be appropriate tomorrow. And those existing buildings are sort of really simple and have been hacked about and are loved in the way that they're used by their current tenants. So adopting some of those principles into the way that we design for the future.

Speaker 2:

And you've sort of touched on flexibility there, and I think you know regeneration going forward. You know that's kind of going to be the linchpin word for everything that we do from now on. So, environmentally, what are we looking at in terms of the impact? But also, you know, mitigation and efforts, whether I guess that's in the buildings as well as out on the streets. You know what are we looking at in terms of the specific, some of the specifics, I suppose, with how you're going to make it comfortable in a yard, because at the moment all I can see is a yard. But what's that going to look like in terms of climate resilience, as it were, in the future?

Speaker 3:

Well, if we take the yard, for example, and actually there's not a lot of landscape or natural environment there, but there is a fantastic park just in the north that's got tons of potential in terms of it's a great green space and can continue to evolve and become so much more. It's about how can you connect those green spaces and and through the wider area, with the moves that we make on our site and bring greening into our site to add biodiversity and ecological richness, but also recognizing that that contributes to the healthiness of a place and how you feel in terms of feeling well in that place. So trees help with shading and cooling. Actually seeing green and seeing natural really de-stresses you. So making sure that we're thinking about those things from an external perspective and then in terms of the buildings, we've worked really hard on a piece of thought leadership and then translating that ideas piece into the design of these buildings. So using it as a real test bed of innovation to say if we think differently and if we start with these buildings from a perspective of how physics works and how can you get the massing of a building right so that it can just breathe, so that it can not get too hot or cold so that there's enough air flowing through for us to feel ventilated and, you know, got enough oxygen through the building.

Speaker 3:

How do we start with the physics of how those things work as principles and then design a building mass around it to really make sure you've maximized the potential of it? And so that's been a real focus here. And so the various new builds that we have on site we've really embedded those principles into it in terms of making sure they're not too fat, that we've got things like opening windows in them, that we've thought about the proportion of glazing and put it in a place where you really benefit from all the daylight and sunlight that come in, but without getting all the negative benefits of it overheating the space. So really trying to play with those first principles of science, I guess Fantastic, yeah, how do?

Speaker 2:

you make a place great. A lot of passive engineering as well, it sounds like, and you've mentioned the new builds. What about the historic builds? Are you having any influence on them as well?

Speaker 3:

Yes, so the building here is already an exhibition space and really looking to take that from more of an informal exhibition space to much more deliberately designed for cultural activities, and so we've worked with Chris Dyson Architects to say, well, what does that mean in terms of how it needs to function, what services do we need to bring in to help that, and how do we work with the space, canning and range it all in the right way? And again, things like how do we upgrade the fabric? So it's an amazing building, but if you look up at the roof, lots of holes. So how do we do really simple things like upgrade the fabric of the roof and the facade to make sure that it's not just leaking energy or physically leaking rain in?

Speaker 2:

And Leti. I'd love to know. I mean, there's so much existing character here and character plays such a strong and important role in sort of retaining social value.

Speaker 4:

Talk to me a bit about how the history of the plays informs and feeds into the character and the social yeah, absolutely, I think I mean you can just see here just how many you know heritage and, uh, historic parts there are to the site and I think the team has worked so hard on retaining the buildings that have that sort of iconic you know, everyone knows the the chimney there, the yards are. Really they've got a lot of heritage value in them and I think the team has done really well to kind of identify which buildings do need to be retained to kind of keep that legacy. That's that Tom was saying. You know it's built up over 350 years, um, but how do we bring it into, uh, into the future, for the next generations as well?

Speaker 4:

You know Spittal Fields has evolved, you know, time and time and time again, and I think this is just going to be a next evolution of that. But retaining that sort of embedded sort of fabric of heritage and culture, but also not just the sort of historic culture but also the, you know, newer culture, such as some of the street art. And how do we bring some of that creativity and artistic um stuff that's been going on on the site? How do we kind of keep hold of that and make sure that it doesn't sort of become whitewashed and sort of completely dissipates through the new development. We want to kind of bring that back on site as fast as we can really fantastic.

Speaker 5:

I think the the essence of the brief, I think from from ourselves, but from treeman um, it is this kind of attitude to, to growth, to evolution of the place, um. But that is much more a kind of conceptual thing about the neighborhood, about the site, about the people, about the culture and what we've talked about. That isn't necessarily directly related to the physical buildings, and what I mean by that is this isn't necessarily like a retrofit first agenda here, because that isn't necessarily always the right thing. Sometimes retrofit first is the right approach, other times, actually, the buildings that exist are actually a demolition and a densification.

Speaker 5:

To make the most of urban brownfield land to create vibrant places that are connected to great transport networks, like we've got around here, is the right answer, and in quite a broad sense, that can feel quite heavy actually when you start thinking about words like responsibility, but I quite like using it in design team meetings actually, because it is kind of a big responsibility that, as does retrofit, as does um, does do sort of lighter touch and other aspects, or doing nothing, frankly as well, sometimes that's the right answer.

Speaker 5:

So we looked at the site as a whole through that open lens, um, and decided where we thought it was appropriate to place new buildings and then, as angela was touching on once, you've kind of made that decision, is that okay? Well, how do we make those new buildings as responsibly as we can in the current climate? Um, in the gate. I mean that in the broader sense. I don't just mean environmentally, I mean in planning context, in terms of what innovations we have to hand, what technologies we have to hand at the moment. And, uh, I think that was that was an interesting brief that we tried to work within.

Speaker 2:

And I mean, if you don't mind me saying it sounds like you're responsible for so much. You guys must be working so close together just in terms of that umbrella vision and that overview. Tell me a bit about how that's working. And you guys must be in touch with all the consultants you know across every week. You know. Tell me about the sort of the inner machinations of that. How is it working? How are you managing it all you know together? I mean that's a huge scope.

Speaker 3:

Is that something you're used to? I think something that has been a really good springboard is that we've got a really longstanding trusted relationship of working together on other projects and so being able to come into that and not jump straight in, but to have the time to have conversations to say what does success look like? What is inspiring us about this place? What is that high level brief that Tom's just shared about this place? What is that high level brief that Tom's just shared?

Speaker 3:

To be able to take the time to think that through has been really beneficial, I think.

Speaker 3:

Rather than we've got a certain amount of money in a certain amount of time and we've got to do x, y and z, which can become very process driven, we've managed to be trusting enough to move away from that and know that that will all flow really smoothly out of some good high-level thinking. And then, I think, working with the wider team and various other architectural consultants that we've not worked with before. I think it's about establishing a process of really trying to understand the essence and the nub of what people are trying to achieve and not being afraid of sharing our needs as part of that. So it can be quite a challenging process, but a really constructive challenge to make design as good as it can be. And so I think it's not being scared of challenge and design, design seeing it as part of a creative process, but also remembering that the process needs to be fun and constructive and and that we we're all coming away from it, friends, because we spend a lot of time at work. We all care enormously about our work, don't we?

Speaker 5:

so it needs to be positive yeah, exactly, and that kind of that positive challenge, as Angela's referring to there, that comes from having diversity of opinion in any conversation, and in this scenario we're talking about a diversity of built environment specialists all around the table, and obviously within that it's great if the specialists themselves, you know, then have a diversity perspective, um from the people in in those teams as well, but purely from a discipline perspective, having that up front, creating a culture where, um it it's a one team approach, everyone's voices listened to equally, and then it's kind of cards on the table, and then you kind of make a decision from that, as opposed to maybe a traditional approach to early stages of development, which would be what's the sketch and how do we kind of make that sketch work which can result in great things, it can result in great buildings, but it can also maybe put a glass ceiling on what's possible in terms of moving the needle with regards to whole life, carbon, or with regards to experience of place, or or actually just with regards to the overall quality of of what's being delivered, how, how easy it is to build, how fast it is to build um.

Speaker 5:

So we try to look at everything together at the outset of projects, with the various architectural opinions, with the various consultant opinions, and then we sort of test that along the way through engagement with local community and and other, you know, interested groups etc. And that hopefully create something that is, if not liked by everyone, is at least really considered, really robust, really well thought through and ultimately is deliverable. Because I think no one really wants to spend time, energy, whether it's in a team or whether, more importantly, if you're a local resident or something being consulted on something that may never happen. I think it's always good if developments are conceived as something that is really deliverable, can actually deliver on the vision so that it actually does make a difference to people's lives in the local community, because if it stays on a piece of paper it never really has that, that long-term impact.

Speaker 3:

I think the bit that personally really excites me about my role and my job is where you take elements that look like they're in conflict at first glance and really challenge to understand well, what's, what's the nub of what people are trying to achieve and how can you reposition that so that you achieve both, because I think that's where the innovation happens. So, whether it's looking at how can we use more renewable materials and design like timber and make sure it's resilient and safe, or how can we, on this site, reuse the amazing stockpile of old cobbles original cobbles and also relay them but enable modern vehicles to track over them, make sure that they're also permeable so that we can get sustainable drainage going through them, how do you layer all of those needs together and make it work, and that's when you get innovation.

Speaker 4:

I think the collaboration also that we're having with Truman Estates themselves has been really helping kind of push the vision forward.

Speaker 4:

They're a very long-term minded client and I think certainly from a social and economic perspective, you need that actor to understand that we're not just talking about the sort of five, six year design planning and construction phase, but we're not just talking about the sort of five, six year design planning and construction phase, but we're talking about the sort of the 10, 20, 30 plus years of operation and in use and and I think human estates have been brilliant at sort of really grasping that they're already the estate manager, they already understand what it means to run a site like this.

Speaker 4:

To run this site, I should say um, and I think that's just really. It's been really helpful collaborating on a sort of day-to-day basis with Truman Estates and I think it's just testament to their view of how they have already embedded themselves in this community that they want to see it thrive, they want to see this as a success and they want to do whatever they can to make that a reality. And so I think that collaboration is is really unique on this site and something that I certainly haven't, you know, done on a project before.

Speaker 2:

So here we've just come out of 91 Brick Lane. It was nice and toasty in there and it's a bit chilly around here, but I think that's good. I think we need to walk the streets and really see where you've put your designs into action. So let's go. I think we're going to join Brick Lane now at this historic element, but we'll walk south, absolutely.

Speaker 4:

So this is, I mean, hopefully we're going to see some of the kind of amazing variety of people who come to this part of London, variety of people who come to this part of London, um, and I think you know, you, they there are lots of tourists here who come already, but there's also, you know, local people, students, um, people who work here, obviously come here every day, um, and you know people who live here as well, and student children as well.

Speaker 4:

And I think that's because some of the things that we've done, and especially we've worked with publica, who are public realm specialists, and they've been able to, you know, they've been coming around to this site for, you know, months and months, and kind of almost a year and a half now, and coming at different times of the year, coming at different times of the day, different times of the week, coming at different times of the day, different times of the week, and they've been experiencing it and understanding how people move about the site, move about the local area, what things there are to do besides Tumen Breweries, because I think that's one of the other important things is we want, whatever happens on the scheme, to complement what exists, what already exists in the local area and I think it's all about not duplicating but actually adding to and creating more, than kind of bringing more to the area, but through complementing and and um, not trying to compete with anything else.

Speaker 4:

Um, I mean, we're walking down famous brick lane now, um, you know, amazing smells, amazing, lots of noise, um, and you know, that's what we want at the site itself when it sort of all comes to us. We want it to be a bustling and messy kind of fun space yeah, yeah, that's amazing, isn't it?

Speaker 5:

when you get this different perspective, you know, in terms of walking down, you know we've only come 100 meters or so down from where we are in quite a quiet little yard right up to Brinkley, and that that hyper-diversity of people, of experience, of sound, is really amazing.

Speaker 2:

And so I get the sense that you need to work together with others. You know who've, like you said, sort of done the granular really granular analysis, and so are there others who are contributing to that. I mean, I know we've spoken to other consultants cost analysis, I mean, where does the cost and sort of. You know how we measure social value in this current sort of age is becoming tricky and complicated, but also we're all trying to sort of work it out together. How are you working together with the other consultants to to work to sort of solve this?

Speaker 4:

yeah, I mean, I think it's one of the things we were saying earlier is about, you know, that, collaboration and for us it's about collaborating with our you know, the amazing team that Grow Places in Truman Estates have brought together.

Speaker 4:

But it is also about collaborating with the community and you know we've done a lot of work.

Speaker 4:

Lowick have done great work, kind of going out having conversations, engaging with local people, business owners along you know, the brick lane um business owners group, um trying to understand, you know, what their fears are about, about the development, and trying to, you know, reassure them but also acknowledge that, you know, we're not always going to get it right immediately, but that we're here and willing to learn and listen and work with them um to ensure that we're here and willing to learn and listen and work with them um to ensure that we can do as much as we can to, as I was saying, you know, complement what what happens um.

Speaker 4:

So I think that collaboration goes, you know, within the team itself, but also kind of outwards as well and and into, you know, the council, at local councillors um community groups. You know we're having lots of conversations, not just in the immediate Bangla town Spitalfields area, but the wider Tower Hamlets area as well, and Tom and Truman have said it's been really integral to that because they've got those existing relationships. And for us it's not just about helicoptering in and doing a fancy report for the planning application. That's not what we're here to do. We're here to really understand the existing partnerships, existing relationships and build on those and evolve those to make the scheme as successful as it can be in the long term and that legacy of social impact, economic impact, community wealth building as we possibly can.

Speaker 3:

I think a really nice example for me and something that's been really fun is we've spent as much time as possible coming down on site and getting into the existing buildings and walking around and doing that with the client and various people that work for Truman, and just as you chat to them, understanding that they've worked here and in this area for tens and decades of tens of years, and therefore the anecdotes and all the local people that they know and the little funny stories that they'll tell, are just so enriching in terms of thinking about yeah, that's, that's the kind of place we want to create. We want people to behave like that in future to create.

Speaker 5:

We want people to behave like that in future. Yeah, yeah, I think that you know, places and projects are multi-layered in terms of, um, what goes into them. So I think what, what we've tried to do here, is to assemble a team that brings the best of what the industry knows, which has a a global or, at least you know, a national lens on what is best practice, how do we move the needle forwards, and then that actually sets up a number of kind of principles and approaches which, um, you could apply to different places, because, you know, people are people in, in their kind of core sense. There's a lot of fun. So, like socioeconomic and psychological drivers that are consistent people they're equally. There's a lot of environmental drivers that are consistent people they're equally. There's a lot of environmental things that are consistent about how we approach new builds or refurbishments.

Speaker 5:

But then, on the other end, there's a really high colloquial attitude to, okay, well, what does this? What does this sort of hundred meter radius mean? Let's study it in great detail. Let's look at the uses ground floor above, let's talk to the people, let's map it through different days of the week, times a day. So we're trying to sort of look at it in different ways, um, and I think that's a really interesting kind of perspective and within that, hopefully, you create something that is um, building on the best of what's here. You know, also being grown up enough to recognize that you can't change everything and you can't affect everything through one project or through one development, and not being too sort of rose-tinted about anything, trying to be sort of realistic and appropriate with where we are, the process and the impact we can have, but then trying to bring the lens that the local community doesn't necessarily have, which is, as I say, is that broader sort of industry best practice lens, and try to marry the two feet together.

Speaker 2:

So what will be the impact for the existing places here because, for example, the shops that we have behind us, do they sit on this redevelopment site, and how will they be affected?

Speaker 5:

yeah, so well, actually it's curious, interesting that we've stopped here, because it's a bit of a yes and no answer to that. You're behind behind you there, dominique. That is part of um the tribune Estate, and then on the east of Brig Lane here and to the south of Brig Lane that's not part of the site. So you have this kind of cheap-out-jowl relationship where you know where we were earlier filming. Looking down, you can kind of see from a bird's eye view how the Truman Brewery fits in with the street pattern. But when you're actually down here in the place you don't necessarily feel that, you don't feel the scale of these buildings, you don't feel the scale of their footprint. And I think that's been one of the real key aspects of the master plan we are.

Speaker 5:

You know it's all relative, but some would say we're proposing quite large buildings on this site relative to certain aspects of the local conservation area or streets, but then actually they're comparable or actually smaller to some of the brewery buildings. But the footprint is bulk and mass is only one aspect of how a building feels. Actually, the majority of it is how it feels on a street and how the ground floor feels, how high it is. What's the approach to the way it addresses the street, welcome people in, and those things are much more localized to different approaches around the site. So yes, there's areas of this view where it's Truman, where it's not, but hopefully it all just feels like one experience of a place and hopefully the new bits, when they emerge over time, will just feel like a continuation of that. So you don't necessarily feel where Truman starts and begins. It's much more just a feeling of being in Spitalfields and Bagletown in a vibrant, creative, successful neighbourhood that people want to live in and visit.

Speaker 2:

So you touched on the word successful and I guess a lot of business owners might be nervous about disruption or competition. So, from a sort of social perspective and also from sort of the economic stacking, should these businesses be nervous, what's going to happen to their prospects? You know, once this development well, I suppose when it's going through its construction phase, which might take a number of years, and then afterwards, what are the projections telling us?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I mean, we've been working a lot with Volterra and they are the sort of experts in understanding, you know, the current footfall, working with Arabs, transport experts as well. You know this is already, as you can see, a really bustling, you know high footfall area and so you know there are a lot of people who you know, use this street. They kind of, you know, go into the restaurants, go into the restaurants, go into the shops, and all that the scheme is going to do or not all, but a lot of what the scheme is going to do is just raise that footfall slightly and also we're looking to see what can be done to elongate some of the hours and some of the days when people will be coming to this area. So in a way, yes, that there might be some disruptions during the construction, um, but really we see that the kind of rise in footfall is going to benefit that the wider business, business community.

Speaker 4:

Anyway, I think there are. You know, as tom was saying, it's about talking to those people and building that kind of trust, more trusted relationship, being open and honest about some of the you know, short-term impacts that there will be, you know, during construction. But actually, what are the medium, longer term benefits that they will see. And, as I said earlier, you know being kind of consciously having those conversations and listening to what they've got to say, listening to their worries and and really trying to address those through the design and through the programming and operation as well.

Speaker 2:

Fantastic and there's an opportunity, I'm guessing, as you said, with the lengthening of business potential, of a nighttime economy that feels possibly more inclusive, maybe of things that traditionally cities haven't done, which is, you know, spaces for women or spaces for children. You know sorry, particularly at night. You know, for example, you know people feeling women or spaces for children. You know sorry, particularly at night. You know, for example, you know people feeling safe, people of different sort of ethnic. You know diversity and etc.

Speaker 3:

So, yeah, I think that's a really good point. I think, actually, when you pick up, for example, that piece around the nighttime economy and lengthening out and talking about what exists, a place can be brilliant and wonderful, but nothing's perfect. So every place already has its needs. What can we do to improve and help evolve and address those needs? So that has then translated back into design in terms of thinking about security, thinking about how do we design a place that hasn't got or that is going to feel safe, that has the right types of lighting, that has the right kind of ambience and vibrancy that people are going to want to be in this area through times of days where maybe they're not at the moment, and diverse user groups. So, whether that's designing for children, designing for the elderly is a big thing and, as you said, designing for women as well, they're all aspects that get those principles right and understand those needs and you just make places better for everybody.

Speaker 2:

We've spoken a lot about. You know the impact of the here and the now, construction and sort of benefits for businesses, but how are you designing or researching for the society that we might have in 10, 20, 30 years? I mean COVID interrupted so much. How can we possibly anticipate how we're going to use these spaces going forward?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I think we would be foolish to kind of try and predict exactly how the space will be used in 10, 20 years. I think what we're, as Angela was speaking about, in terms of building flexibility into the building design, we're also trying to build flexibility and adaptability in the public benefits, social value, community wealth building strategy, in the public benefits, social value, community wealth building strategy. And what that means is you're putting in the infrastructure around sort of governance, monitoring, partnering, so that the series of commitments that human estates are going to be making to fulfil their sort of desire to be a highly socially valuable scheme, highly socially valuable master plan, that those principles will remain throughout but that the interventions and activities that might be done to address the local needs and make the most of local strengths, those may well have to adapt over time. And I think keeping that flexibility, keeping those relationships with people like Tower Hamlets, so that everyone's aware that we are completely committed, but the, you know, the nuanced activities may have to flex and to best address those local needs, local priorities.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely that. And but there are. You know, there are some sort of really big kind of positives to this scheme that we are delivering housing. We're delivering larger units for families, including affordable housing. We're delivering a large amount of new workspace, including affordable workspace that's tailored towards creative industries, like the creative ecosystem that Truman already got here, um, that prioritizes apprenticeships and engaging with local people, um, and then we've got vibrant program of public spaces and uses that come off that, whether that's events spaces, cultural spaces, um, or spaces for leisure, and then viewing the place through 24 hours a day or seven days a week, kind of lens about how does it kind of um offer the most it can do, but but doing that in a way that is in the spirit of what truman is. Now you know we're stood in in ellie's yard. Now you look around.

Speaker 5:

These buildings were built as part of the brewery, that wasn't built as a trendy shoe shop or that wasn't built as a cool taco restaurant, but people have inhabited it over time and life of the city has infiltrated the fabric of the buildings, and that's something that Truman, to be fair, very open about at the start.

Speaker 5:

A key part of the brief is we don't really know exactly what tenant is going to go here, what community-led program we're going to run at any given time, and I think that's the right approach for a scheme of this scaling complexity.

Speaker 5:

What we can do is kind of try to understand as best as we possibly can what we think are the local needs, commercial needs, social needs, environmental needs we kind of talked about, and then allow life to happen in these places, and I think that will be the enjoyment of seeing the place emerge over the decades and see how people inhabit it. And maybe as we walk round onto Dray Walk, there's no better example than that really, of a street I don't think, at least I've seen in London definitely that is so flexible, it's so dynamic and you know it changes throughout the week. You know there's a different use there on a Monday, so there is on a Wednesday or Thursday, and you come back the next week and it's different again. I think that that variety of experience, it draws people here, it creates a place that's interesting it creates a place that people will want to come back to.

Speaker 4:

It's not just a place that people come once and then think that's it, it's actually they can return to. They know that there will be something different on offer every few months. A place that people come once and then think that's it, it's actually they can return to. They know that there'll be something different on offer every you know, every few months. It'll be changing every every week and that kind of bringing people back to it and making it an exciting, evolving place is is really important yeah, we, you know we live in a.

Speaker 5:

We live in a world now where people have got short attention spans. You know, if you live in city, you do so because you want a variety of experiences. You want to come and experience something new, but also maybe be somewhere that's really familiar and that has a benefit for local businesses as well, because it is bringing people back to the area on a repeat basis and people don't just come to Brick Lane to visit Truman. It may be one of the main reasons they come, but it might just be a stop on their journey throughout the day through the wider neighbourhood. So I think that vibrancy, that vitality, that flexibility is something to really be celebrated and it goes across everything as we talked about, from the social programs down to the leasing strategy.

Speaker 3:

Essentially, I mean inherently being sustainable is to be long-term, isn't it? Whether economically, socially, environmentally. And I think what underpins all of our thinking and our approach is making sure that what might seem cutting edge thinking now isn't obsolete and bog standard by the time that we come to try and deliver on it. So it's more about commitments and building in the ability for us to continue evolving, both through design, through building, and through operation, operation and way beyond us, and that's one of the benefits of having such a long termist client in a way, because you know they're here for the next hundred years.

Speaker 4:

They want it to be a success and evolve and adapt over those many, many decades to come. They're not sort of here to sell it off as some developers would do. It's kind of a thing that they're really committed and I think that's just so exciting for us as the consultants.

Speaker 3:

I think that's really true. Something that's really stuck with me from the very first time I met the client was the conversation we had about the next 400 years. Truman has existed and evolved for so long already and we want that to continue for the same again and beyond. What a brief.

Speaker 2:

You know, we're so often told it's 10 years, 30 years, and we're saying that we need to build for 100 years, and here you've got the space for 400 years and beyond. That's fantastic. We'll all be here to see it. Some you know that's it. That'll be you taking it Right. Well, thank you so much, leslie. Thank you, it's been incredible, um, and we've learned so much about just how this all knits together. It's it's going to be fascinating to see it all come to fruition. So that's it from us, thank you.

Speaker 1:

Thanks everyone. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the grow places podcast. For more information, visit growplacescom and follow us at. We grow places across all social channels. See you next time.