Grow Places

GP 21: Truman Brewery 04: Opening up: Landscape & Public Realm with Spacehub

• Grow Places • Season 1 • Episode 21

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What happens when once closed areas of a neighbourhood open up to be enjoyed by all?

Join us as we walk around our Truman Brewery site with Giles and Rosie from Spacehub to explore their sensitive work on the Landscape and Public Realm design for our Truman Brewery redevelopment in East London. In this episode, we unravel their strategies for creating interconnected, functional outdoor spaces that not only complement architectural designs but also provide inviting public areas for relaxation and interaction. Learn how they envision a more permeable environment that enhances the overall experience for both residents and visitors.

We dig deep into the complexities of balancing functionality, sustainability, and community engagement in urban design. From standout trees to rain gardens and sustainable drainage systems (SuDS), find out how these landscape architects integrate greenery and water management into their designs to enhance biodiversity and improve peoples connection to nature in this urban location. We'll also touch on the importance of preserving the unique character of neighborhoods like the Brick Lane, steering clear of a corporate feel, and crafting public realms that are playable without the need for formal playgrounds.

We shed light on integrating new facades and activating spaces while blending new developments with the existing urban fabric. Hear about the ambitious project to reuse heritage materials and the commitment to sustainability, aiming to create a cohesive, evolving community that honours its historical roots while meeting modern needs. Don't miss this insightful conversation on shaping vibrant, dynamic urban spaces that foster community and stand the test of time.

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the People Grow Places podcast where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth and place Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, tom Larson. Today we have a special episode recorded on site at the Truman Brewery in East London, where we are excited to work in partnership with the Truman Brewery and local people in Brick Lane, spitalfields and Banglatown. Truman Brewery and local people in Brick Lane.

Speaker 2:

Spitalfields and Banglatown. Okay, so here we are at the heart of the Truman Brewery with Space Hub Design. We have Giles and Rosie. Guys, do you want to introduce yourselves?

Speaker 3:

Hi, yeah, I'm Giles. I'm the founder of Space Hub. We set up in the area about 13 years ago and we've been working quite a lot in the area.

Speaker 4:

And I'm Rosie at Space Hub. I'm an associate and, yeah, I've been working at Space Hub for about seven years. I've been in the area for about that long as well.

Speaker 2:

And you focus on landscapes and outside spaces.

Speaker 3:

So we're landscape architects, so we're we're mainly dealing, obviously, with all of the outside spaces, but always working very closely with the architects in terms of how we create those spaces. And then it's dealing with everything about how those spaces function and how those spaces are kind of used.

Speaker 2:

And are you working all over the trim and brewery redevelopment or just certain parts of it?

Speaker 4:

the trim and brewery redevelopment or just certain parts of it. Um, I think it's fair to say most of it at this point. Um, we first started sort of mainly looking at the main site, but I think now we're involved in the rest of the sort of wider project, which is great, um, because that means that sort of urban greening and landscape architecture really sort of carries on as a thread through the whole site, which is great yeah, it's like really integral.

Speaker 5:

You know you can't separate the buildings and the landscape, it when you're thinking about places and developments for this scale, it has to be a integrated and considered approach. You know, from from day one, and that's something that we've. We've done from the outset, obviously with with space, hub and um. So everything from you know, yeah, the the big picture moves from an urban perspective down to the thresholds between the buildings and the landscape. It's all super important. So, yeah, it's been a really good process so far.

Speaker 2:

And that really affects, I guess, how people experience the spaces can move around, can interact and also, you know, have free spaces as well. I suppose you know spaces where we don't have to spend money to sit and to relax or to enjoy the space. So I think we should get into some of that today. Is there anything that we can talk about in this area here, or should we move through?

Speaker 3:

Well, I think this is a good example of kind of one of the breakout spaces, because Brick Lane is, you know, is a very, very busy thoroughfare.

Speaker 3:

Everyone knows about kind of Brick Lane, the name and what kind of goes on here, which is an amazing kind of buzz and that's evolving over the years.

Speaker 3:

But one of the key things is about actually having spaces off Brick Lane where there's opportunity to actually to get away from that kind of completely manic sort of activity and be able to sort of sit down and like, say, not necessarily have to pay for a drink or whatever it is. So I think that, and I think it's also about the scale of these spaces and there are one or two sort of breakout spaces along this kind of corridor. But I think that that's an important part of our kind of understanding of the wider area and it is about a whole series of spaces and how the whole wider kind of context and I suppose the urban design of the area, how it works as a whole and how we're sort of fitting into that with what we're doing now. And it's like Tom was saying, I think it's like we've been very kind of careful to sort of, with the master planners, develop the site in a way such that it becomes more permeable and it's linking up to more of these sort of spaces.

Speaker 5:

Fantastic, it's a good sort of spaces Fantastic.

Speaker 2:

It's a good example of where we start.

Speaker 5:

You know, a lot of the references have been very local about what makes this place really successful to date, but also, obviously, some of the things that we can hopefully aspirationally look to enhance as we move forward. So hopefully, as we move through, we'll see that the spaces that we're proposing are hopefully a bit of a continuation of the continuation of, of the feel of of this neighborhood okay, should we go and have? Yeah, let's wonder, should we wonder I?

Speaker 2:

think we should, let's do it. I guess what we're dealing with here is there are a lot of different people to consider with any of this kind of design, so it'd be really interesting to learn how you're factoring in different needs from different generations, different sort of uses and what each building needs to kind of house or foster or support how it needs to support on the street. Yeah, is there consideration around that, rosie?

Speaker 4:

definitely I think um the trimmer brewery as a sort of major sort of cultural venue and the kind of shops that it has um and venues and and bars and things, it does tend to cater for that younger generation.

Speaker 4:

And I think what's an important part of this proposal for the other side of Brick Lane is that we want to involve people, a wider group of people. Essentially, we're very close to a really big residential area on the east side of the site. What we want to do is have spaces that they feel welcome in and not excluded from, perhaps, as they might do, for example, dre Walk at the moment, which is sort of very different in character, so that part of the brewery. So yeah, we really want to appeal to a wider group of people and I think what's nice is that we can make this site part of people's journey home or journey to school or or whatever, and so there's sort of you know there's children as well and there's not really many places for them at the moment in the Truman Brewery. So that's something. Again, we're trying to keep the puppet realm as playful as we can really integrate everyone fantastic.

Speaker 2:

Are we going to take this street down here? Yeah, we're just.

Speaker 5:

This is kind of the bounds of the Truman Brewery here on both sides with Quaker Street and Buxar Street, and we're on the eastern side here. So we're going to move down Buxar Street now. And yeah, have a look. As I say, you'll see the character change quite quickly as we get off Brick Lane and into towards Allen Gardens. So let's go have a look at that.

Speaker 2:

Okay, fantastic.

Speaker 5:

It's a bit narrow down here, isn't it, Giles it is yeah, so watch yourselves.

Speaker 3:

And I mean that's part of everything about thinking about this. I mean you're walking down a fairly narrow pavement there, but you look at the pavement on the other side of the street and think, well, actually that's not very helpful for, whether it's children or anyone being able to walk down there safely. So it's about managing all of those things of how people can move around the site safely and get to the various spaces safely.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, you see that here, don't you really on this bit of the site.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 5:

That narrowness.

Speaker 2:

Which part are we describing now?

Speaker 4:

So the pavement on, I guess, the Truman Brewery side of the street is pretty much non-existent and you know, in terms of sort of today's standards of accessibility and ensuring that pedestrians are encouraged, you know, to walk where they wish to, that's not very good. So that's something that, you know, particularly Morrison Company, but ourselves as well, are seeking to address it's to make sure that people can walk where they need to walk and they're not pushed into the road, which is great.

Speaker 2:

I mean, we've just had a mother and baby have to jump onto the road to even walk down the street, so yeah.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, we're to blame for some of that, but that's all good Well if there were another pavement, they would be able to walk along that exactly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you can just see it all the way along there okay, so talk to me about what are you having any influence here?

Speaker 3:

so, so obviously the allen gardens has become an incredibly important sort of resource open green space for for the kind of the whole area and, um, you know, lots of stuff goes on here, loads of people use it, but it's not always the safest environment and, as you can see. You know, a blank wall sort of on this face doesn't exactly make people feel safe All different types of users here. So one of the big impacts that this will have is actually having an active frontage so that people are looking out and there's activity there, so that people, whether it's young children or anyone um playing and using the gardens, will feel a lot sort of safer. And I think it's because we we've been working um, I mean, we've been working in this area for for many, many years. So we've been working with spitalfield city farm, which is just over on the boundary there, and they're looking to sort of try and improve and the facilities here for the local community.

Speaker 3:

There's the old uh Shoreditch Station building there which one day will be redeveloped. There's the Bishopsgate Goodsyard site over there. So there's lots of sort of stuff kind of going on all around the area and all of that is sort of part of contributing to, I suppose the the longer term regeneration or development of this area, um and and making um all these sort of spaces more more successful and more inclusive for everyone. So it's about that sort of making places safer and more friendly and also, I think, what we and we we can talk about some of the spaces within the site itself, but this is very much about the screen space. We want to have screen space within the site which is sort of linking to the garden.

Speaker 3:

So this is sort of inviting people in and particularly we were talking about, you know, children's play. This is. This is not just about adults. It's about wide, wide lots of different types of people wanting to feel comfortable and feel invited into the site.

Speaker 2:

So what about the kind of green space that we need for the environment to give back a little bit? You know this is quite sort of monotone sort of green. You know this is one type of grass, a grass that doesn't necessarily invite bees to, you know, come and no, well, that doesn't necessarily invite bees to, you know, come and come and no, well, there's always.

Speaker 3:

Everything has to work on lots of levels, so it's got to do lots of things. That this is great if you're going to have a big event here. There's a big sounds, massive sound stage here and there's a mini festival which sometimes happens here, whatever. But you know, and that's what we're not going to be doing there. But but then it's about balance that with with ecology and and getting sort of biodiversity into the site, and that's what we're not going to be doing there. But then it's about balancing that with ecology and getting biodiversity into the site. And that's something that we're doing at sort of every level with sort of from the ground, with planting trees, but having sort of talking about the sort of sustainable energy, urban drainage systems and having rain gardens and then having biodiverse roof on the roofs of the buildings, having rain gardens and then having biodiverse roof on the roofs of the buildings.

Speaker 2:

So there's sort of stuff everywhere which is contributing to the sort of, I suppose, the overall sort of sense of the place and how it feels, giving that sort of softer touch to it, um, and but creating nice environment, friendly environment, um, for the bees as well and I mean that was going to be my next question because you know, with climate, you know with everything that that's happening at the moment, we're going to be prone to flooding and flooding is going to become less predictable and uh, and the weather patterns are changing all the time. So how, you know, how useful will the green be for for sort of keeping the Truman Brewery safe and keeping the streets?

Speaker 4:

I mean, greening is integral to making comfortable environments well into the future. Um, we had a lot of analysis um from our engineers about microclimate but also projecting that microclimate into the next sort of 50 years or so with the projected changes due to climate change. And, yeah, having good shading um trees, trees are incredibly important in that shading um but also doing sort of cooling the environment down. So you know, you know, to be honest, it's been a challenge to get really good levels of. But you know, and you know, the site has got to function as well. It's not a park, it's public space. It is for everyone. But to cater for everyone it's got to have a lot of things in it.

Speaker 4:

So, getting really good trees in, you know we've managed to get those in. We've put rain gardens and suds features wherever we can to help with that sort of just taking water off of the surface and stopping it from going into our sewers. And yeah, it takes, it takes a lot to make a space like. It's a very I must say it's probably one of our most hard-working um environments that we're designing, I think. I think it's got a lot of functions to deal with.

Speaker 5:

You know, alan park uh sorry, alan gardens be piece of cake compared to uh to, to the public realm story and the the sort of greening on buildings, and there it's incredibly complicated it was definitely a tough brief that you know rosie and giles and the rest of the team took, because you know it's very ambitious, like we want this really vibrant, dynamic set of public spaces that invite people in that are welcoming. We also want it to be a space that's calm, that you could come and have your lunch or come with your, your young child, on a on a weekday or a weekend. Um, we want to be really flexible and and sustainable and how it operates and we want it to be really green. Yeah, so, in how it operates and we want it to be really green. So everyone's had quite a challenge in trying to manage all these things. This is always the case.

Speaker 4:

There's always a bit of balance, isn't there with these things, yeah for sure, just much more of a balancing game. On the Truman Brewery, I mean, yeah, you're right, our brief was I guess it was kind of loose in the sense you know, the Truman Brewery needed their messages very much more of the same, please. But you know there's better, but maybe more, you know structured, but maybe that unstructured element is what makes it great. But yeah, that's been quite an interesting brief to work through.

Speaker 3:

But I think that's interesting about that kind of slightly unstructured, because everyone likes the character of this place as it is and that was an important part of our brief that we don't want to lose that. You know, this doesn't want to become a corporate world. That's always been very kind of clear and I think everyone it's's always been very kind of clear and I think everyone, um, it's also been an amazing kind of team because there's a lot of people on the team. You know it's a super talented um team and and it's been very much about that whether it's the engineers or all the different architects working kind of to to sort of coordinate these things, which is kind of quite quite challenging, um, but but so I suppose that's been one of the kind of really enjoyable kind of aspects but but also one of the challenges.

Speaker 3:

But I think we it's about what's valuable to us about this area is very much it's it's past, you know, and it's present, and this is about thinking about the future in a way that's going to develop it in the right way.

Speaker 3:

And I think it's about an attitude, and I think that's what's always why we love working with Truman is because we feel very sympathetic with that attitude about the development of the area. You know it's the people who really really care for all of this. You know, I mean, I've lived here for 30 years and been working on numerous sites around here and I think that we feel like this is sort of on our patch. It's really important to us and therefore I think we've been sort of really appreciated the opportunity to work with Truman as part of that process in a sense, and it's important that these things are done in in the right, in the right way. You know, and it and you don't, you don't arrive in the right place in one go. This is part of a journey that we're on um and we're trying to do it the right way, and I'd be really fascinated to know about some of the details of the plants and everything you're putting in.

Speaker 2:

What kind of thinking is going in behind you know how you're greening those spaces?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I think we're really using particularly tree planting, you know, really standout specimen trees that are probably quite unusual for the area aside from the park to really draw people through. So there's a bit of a game of, I guess, spotting something in the distance and drawing yourself towards it and then you reach that point and then you go on to somewhere else. But I think it's about sort of attracting people into these pleasant spaces that are green, um, and do have that sort of uh, I guess that sort of I don't know what it is is there's something about seeing that level of greenery that is calming, yeah, um but it's balancing that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly, you mentioned you use the word game and I I want to talk about the ability to play. Yeah, and what about sort of? You know, we're trying to sort of make shade, so it's safe for, you know, children and and people to sit and rest, but is there any kind of formalized play or anything that children can interact with, or adults if they wish to?

Speaker 4:

yeah, I mean, I think it would you know, I think it's fair to say and I think you know everyone would agree, that having a sort of a? Uh, a playground in the traditional sense would be a really sort of uh, jarring and like sort of inappropriate thing in such a sort of what is a working setting. And I think what we're trying to approach play in a way is actually making everything within the public realms playable. So we're never going to discourage, say, for example, I don't know some roller skaters appear on our sort of lovely smooth surface. That's great, that's using the space that isn't been used for something else. Or in the sort of in sort of greenery, we have sort of elements of natural play within that, as well as sort of quirky little items for children or older people to find and sort of you know, involve themselves in. And I think it's about exploration rather than being very sort of obvious and just being like here's your allocated space, enjoy. It's more an approach to the whole public realm.

Speaker 2:

Nice Sounds really fun.

Speaker 5:

So this is very much a working space. As you can tell, at the moment there's some work going on. We're in the, the heart of the brewery yard now. Okay, um, so you'll have picked up from the outside that this part of the site to the east of brick lane is is very inactive on the street, lots of blank walls that are great canvases for street art but don't offer a great deal else.

Speaker 5:

Back to Allen Gardens, which is the space we were just in, over there, or to the to the streets. So we're now in the centre of the proposed new development. There's a series of yards and spaces here, but you can see, at the moment it's very hard working space. Hard in terms of the materials, as you can see some contrast to Allen Gardens, but hard working in terms of the materials, as you can see some contrast to allen gardens, but hard working in terms of the different functions that it performs. And, obviously, when we start to propose development of different uses of buildings within this space and open this up much more as a part of the neighborhood that's accessible. Then come the challenges that we've just been discussing about how do we humanize this space, how do we make it feel accessible, but also how can it still function so that the development is a really sort of viable sustainable development long term for for different uses? So maybe we could talk a little bit about the approach to this space as we kind of wander through and move away from this.

Speaker 3:

And I think that balancing the sort of functioning of the space even like for people who are able to move goods in and out and pick up refuse and things like that, that's the sort of delicate balance of managing all of those activities in a way that doesn't compromise the use of the spaces and doing things at different times and how where those activities are located around the site. That's part of the whole sort of master plan development process that's been really really key to so then us being able to create, create the open spaces which which can be inviting and and safe for, you know, children or anyone else to be able to sort of walk around and kind of enjoy. So there's a lot of complexity in what is a very simple site in the sense that it's a series of spaces connected by a series of passages and lanes, very much in the character of the wider sort of estate and the wider kind of area you mentioned before.

Speaker 2:

I mean you must be one of the few consultants on this, on this redevelopment scheme that has to work with all the different architects and I want to pick up on that.

Speaker 2:

So you've got an agenda where you're trying to bring, you know, play green, you know shading organic spaces to all the streets in the areas as much as possible, and safety, but then you've got this contrast of architects needing to have their you know their piece of the pie as well. And and how are you sort of working together and integrating the needs of you know people on the street versus, yeah, in the offices or the homes.

Speaker 4:

I think the truth is that the class of architects that we're working with, they understand that need. They've worked with us before. I think in most cases we have long-standing relationships with a lot of these architects. They're all local, so I think you know they're also spaces they want to see and they that you know they can, they can totally understand the relationship between the built form and the public realm. Yeah, I mean, let's be honest, most people will experience the public realm as opposed to the inside of the building. It's true, um, or, you know, I myself I sometimes struggle to look up at you know up, so I've always focused on the ground. So I think, I think you know, it's a sort of relationship of trust and working together. And, yeah, we do spend a lot of time talking to all the plot architects to make sure that we're all on the same page and that's what we do.

Speaker 3:

That's our job. I mean, we're very used to that on all, on all of our projects. You know it's a really, it's really key um but it's about having those good relationships and having a common cause and I think this is I think it it's fair to say that there's been a really good spirit and vibe in in the team right from the very word go and that sort of sets. It comes back to this whole culture and attitude and approach to doing things. That's been sort of that's led by truman and it's led by the client, but everyone sort of buys into that so that we're all for it. It is genuinely a very collaborative kind of process. So there's a common understanding that you know we. We know that we have to compromise on some things, that that and and everyone has to do that in in the right way to get the best sort of um outcomes for this. So it's it's part of the process and it is genuinely an enjoyable part of the process, you know we love ourselves.

Speaker 5:

It's great no, it's good. Why don't we? Why don't we keep walking? Because, absolutely, what you're beginning to appreciate is this the scale of this site as well yeah um, so let's have a wander down here and then we can go back out onto brick lane yeah, to give people, give people some um uh sense of direction and then what was happening here to our boss?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I mean, it's just not. It's not just architects either. You know, we we had on board Publica, who are an incredible practice, and we learned so much from them. They took such a sort of an amazing amount of research that they undertook and sort of such a sort of an amazing amount of research that they undertook and sort of managed to sort of put it in a way that we all could learn from and base our proposals on. You know, they looked into the local population, they looked into all the local businesses, such to a level of sort of understanding that you know we ourselves could never do really. So that was really integral to our proposals. Um, to really get that really solid base from publica yeah, form everyone's ideas.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly how this space needs to work. Yeah, for different.

Speaker 3:

Yeah it's exactly that, because it's again, it's just understanding, making sure that we're not missing things yeah, you know we want to be jumping to conclusions, saying this is what the site needs, when we might be wrong. So it's really, really important that we are very, very thorough in that sort of contextual research. So we've got a very, very good understanding and that and that. So there's a huge amount of research. I mean we do our own but, as rosie says that that what public have contributed to that has been really really, um, a sort of foundation that I think the team has has worked with to build up the proposals yeah, it's been great, it's been really good.

Speaker 5:

It's worth maybe just while we're here on this part of the site, yeah, maybe just giles rosie, giving a bit of a bit of context to where we are on the estate, obviously, the work that you've done here in the past prior to this project, and how? Um the new project that we're bringing forward, although obviously for slightly different areas of the estate, um references and ties in with what's already been brought forward in the past.

Speaker 4:

Giles, do you want to start?

Speaker 3:

Yes, so I think we're now in an area of the site that's not part of the current master plan works but it is in the sense of the planning application. But it is very much part of the site, obviously, with Woodseer street which is um directly behind the wall here and as part of that, that development here that the wall sort of comes down and it opens up on this side and then we will link through to when we're in the uh, the central yard there. We've got passages linking through here, so and we then come from from brick lane, from Dray Walk, there's a link through here to a new yard here. So it's just a further extension of how we mix in with this, I suppose, the wider master plan of some of those works which have already been through the planning process.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, awesome. Right, should we go out onto Brick Lane, back onto Brick Lane. Yeah, yeah, awesome. Um, right, should we go out onto brick lane, back onto brick lane. Yeah, so why don't we head down Woodshire Street and then we can look at the site at the end?

Speaker 2:

Okay, fantastic. So, tom, is this part of a different development?

Speaker 5:

Yeah, so we've now, as Giles was talking about, on the other side of this wall, um, still part. This is the. This wall here is effectively the boundary of the Truman Brewery site on the. The main site here, um, and, as Giles was referring to, the project that they worked on along with certain other members of the team with Truman in the past was to open this up and to create, um, a new facade along Woodsy Street as well as the yards and the activation of New Dray Walk behind. So the work that we've been doing with Truman and the team has looked to follow some of the sort of urban patterns that have been set out in that permission and then develop on that to kind of complete the urban block in that sense, which is something that I think is really important, to give a steer for how the streets and spaces and the buildings kind of knit into what's already either existing or what's coming forwards. So that was a key part of our brief when we got involved in in the project.

Speaker 5:

And then where we're going to go now, which is just a site down the end here, on the eastern end of woodsyth street, is another part of the project, still part of the tr Brewery, although on the on the different side of Woodzill Street. So this is a site that's really significant locally in terms of its its current use, which is the Banglatown Cash and Carry, and we've they've been a long-standing tenant of Truman and a really key facility and amenity for the local area and we've got strategies working with them for how we can bring them along with the development. So there's a potential for them to relocate into the main site temporarily and then go back into a brand new purpose-built facility as part of the mixed-use development on this site we're going to go look at. And this site here is where we're proposing, as well as some workspace, there's going to be residential space as well, of different shapes and sizes, including homes for families, including affordable homes, as well as that reprovision of the existing retail cash carry use and hopefully some active frontages along the street we're on now, which is Windsor Street, but also the street immediately adjacent, which is Hanbury Street.

Speaker 5:

So, yeah, I think really the brief here has been to again to try and feel like this is all part of the neighbourhood. Yes, there are ownership boundaries, yes, there are boundaries in terms of what you perceive as as Truman, but I think the success of this project will be that it just feels part of the grain of the place and part of the neighborhood and um that over time, as this project comes forward, it it just feels like an evolution of the place, um as opposed to something which has kind of come in and landed here um in any in any one sense. So that's that's very much the aspiration and there's been part of the thinking and hopefully, as as the buildings come forward you know, assuming that we um receive planning permission as they come forward, hopefully if you're a local in the neighbourhood, like Giles is or many others, it feels like the place is just sort of growing and it's evolving really.

Speaker 3:

And I think it's interesting to walking down the street here which we just walked down, a pretty narrow pavement with bollards in it and a blank wall all the way down here, and you can see a blank wall all the way down here and you can see a blank wall all the way along here.

Speaker 3:

And as part of that kind of evolution, this as a street will become a more interesting, more active sort of safe street, just to walk down, you know, because there'll be active sort of frontages, everything's going on. When that wall disappears, there'll be street tree planting down there and they get active retail frontage on there. So so this is a street will start to become less of a dead space, less of a slightly dodgy space so you don't want to walk down at night and just part of a regular sort of street within the, within the area yeah, fantastic safer, that's what we like but the, by the same time, all of the street art is something that is also part of the character of the area and it's not something that we don't want to get rid of or sanitize.

Speaker 3:

You know, I think there'll be spaces within the master plan and areas where we want that to just to continue.

Speaker 2:

That is part of what goes on here and people enjoy that people how do you deliver that when you're trying to make trees, uh, more abundant as well? We don't want people graffitiing around trees. You know what does that look like? You're going to put blank walls up or what's going to happen well, to some extent, yes, that there will be blank walls.

Speaker 3:

There will be areas where where that can just carry on, okay, and and and art is as um, it's just an activity within the site. As you go around, truman, there's lots of odd pieces of art stuck on the roofs of various buildings and things, and that again is you glance up and you see something, some sort of wacky piece of art, and that will continue very much. It's about coming back to our brief, for the master plan was a bit more of the same kind of thing. So, again, it's that ongoing culture that we don't want that to be sanitised and it's a balance. You know, there's a balance. We don't want people, we don't want street art all over the shop windows if there are any shop windows, you know, or whatever, but in the right place, it's managing it, but hopefully that retaining that character, yeah it goes back to things not being too clean or too sanitized um, which I think is everyone's sort of quite rightly biggest concern with new development um.

Speaker 4:

But I think, through sort of we're doing quite a lot of material reuse within the proposals, particularly within the public realm, and sort of just making sure that things, yeah, aren't too new and shiny, and I think that it sort of that level of encouraging street art I think is also another thing. I mean, art is intrinsic to the Truman Brewery and therefore it will be intrinsic to this site as well.

Speaker 2:

Talk to me about the material reuse. That sounds fantastic.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, so the Truman Brewery has in its sort of, I guess, a stockpile, just this amazing amount of material that they've collected over the years, a lot of natural stone, so like big hunks of granite that are just like you know slabs, this big cobbles, all of it.

Speaker 4:

It's all stuff that sort of you know. As new surfaces have gone down, they've kept all the old stuff. So that's a really exciting opportunity, I think, particularly in our public space towards the east of the site, which sits in front of the Cooperage building. We wanted much more of a sort of heritage setting and perhaps playing with some of those old barrel runs and the patterns and all the metal work that they collected, as well as sort of the old granite and things. And then, you know, we have to be sensible about it, we have to make sure that places are accessible and safe to travel along. But, yeah, we are looking to sort of reuse as much as possible really, rather than bring in new yeah, yeah, absolutely, and then that's that's included audits of the buildings that are being demolished as well.

Speaker 5:

Um, so part of that reuse strategy, as rosie's saying, is that kind of like salvage and reclamation element. That's actually already happened prior to the project. But then the process of obviously developing. We're keeping and celebrating a couple of key buildings on the site, but also buildings such as this one behind us here which, although really really significant in terms of the use and in terms of what it does for the community, in terms of the actual fabric of the buildings, as you can kind of see, it's not of the highest quality. In terms of the actual fabric of the buildings, as you can kind of see, um, it's not, you know, not of the highest quality in terms of the building itself, but the materials that go into it, you know, the brick, the maybe not necessarily the the roof coverings, but certain other elements. Where possible, we are, um, we're definitely auditing all of those and there's been a big study done across the whole estate and then we categorize those materials what's really of high value that we can reuse and do we have a location for that, what's maybe a sort of medium value that we maybe can get creative with and what is material that maybe could be used on another site or could go into a circular economy and a a um, a recycle and reuse chain.

Speaker 5:

So so that process has been, has been, really good and I think, as giles and rosie are both intimating, both for the public realm but also for the buildings, we want the place to feel of this place, we want it to be authentic um and and um not necessarily feel new in that sense, feel more of a continuation.

Speaker 5:

But I think it's also worth saying that with that, we also recognise that there are things about the neighbourhood and there are people within the neighbourhood who will want change, who will want things to come forward to improve their quality of life, to improve the prospects for their children, etc. To improve the prospects for their children, et cetera, et cetera. So the project is a balance between those things, really about, yes, being aspirational, yes, having elements that will change the way that the street patterns work, the way that the buildings operate, the way that people live and inhabit the neighbourhood, but doing it in a way that hopefully feels of the neighbourhood as opposed to something else. So that's really, really important for any project that we get involved with, but I think specifically for this neighbourhood there's such a strength of feeling, structure and identity isn't there to this place.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I think that's part of the reason why, because there's quite a big team with lots of different architects. It's not like one architect doing their grand vision over this. It's actually an eclectic sort of mix of architects who've all got some slightly different approaches and some some more specifically with the listed buildings, so that that kind of mix and richness to the site is reflected in how the site will kind of come forward with a, with a yeah, not, not not an alien kind of visitation, but something which is very much part of feels like an evolution of the site. That's fitting.

Speaker 2:

How are you involving yourself in those conversations with local businesses and local visitors? Has that been a straightforward process or yeah.

Speaker 5:

So I wouldn't say consultation is ever straightforward. I think it's always very nuanced and it's always um. You know there's no sort of one approach to consultation, for definitely there's not one approach to consultation across different sites or neighborhoods, but even within a site. There's not one approach to how you consult and engage different elements of the community, and you know we're constantly learning on that. You know we've had a series of consultation events, whether they've been at Truman, whether they've been in local community centers, such as the Brady Center, which just down Hanbury Street from here. But that's an ongoing, ongoing process, I think, and I don't think that process stops when the planning application is submitted Truman.

Speaker 5:

By their very nature, as a long-term owner operator, they've been here for 30 years. They plan to be here for, you know, many, many years in the future. So that that process is about dialogue. It's about showing up, being being present, building trust, some of these things which are bigger and longer than any one project, but for the bit that we're doing now, it's about sharing as much as we can throughout the process about the project. So we had events prior to Christmas which were about asking questions instead of sort of proposing answers to things, and then as we've moved through into the new year, we've had more events as the thinking's emerged and that kind of feedback loop has been great. You know, we're always looking for more engagement and I think that just enriches the process really but is it?

Speaker 3:

I think tom says it is an ongoing process.

Speaker 3:

It's not a fix with any um results.

Speaker 3:

Anybody says it is about a journey and ongoing, because this is whatever happens here is going to go take place over many, many years and through the engagement process we're having.

Speaker 3:

From from our perspective, what we do is we get to have conversations with people that we might not have met before, and that's kind of really nice part of this.

Speaker 3:

So you meet people and then you meet them again in a few months time or and you develop those relationships and then you can kind of build up trust and there'll be people who agree with you, people who don't agree with you, and but it's always that opportunity to talk and have those kind of communications. So it becomes more of an open book thing, and I think it's. We find this on many projects over the years is that especially the longer running projects have gone year after year after year. You do develop those relationships and there becomes a greater understanding of what everyone's trying to do and then I think you get better results kind of coming out of that. Again, you might not always agree with everything, but at least you have a better understanding of things when you can put your point of view and we can take those point of views sort of forward. So it it's an important part of the process.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm really curious. You mentioned before that this is one of the hardest working sort of briefs that you've had. How does this? Can you speak a bit more to that? I'm curious about the other kinds of briefs you've had where this really pushes the agenda a bit more.

Speaker 4:

I think where this, as you say, pushes the agenda is that we really are not just catering to an existing population who already use um the site or the adjacent sites. We really want to bring in local people that perhaps haven't thought of coming to the Truman Brewery before, and you know that happening. I think that means that you've got to cater for many different needs, many different wants, you know, and it will be a workplace, I guess, for many people visiting the site. And catering for that as well is another thing. I think all the, I think the other key thing is really all the sustainability agendas. There's a lot of relatively new policy, both national and London-wide, about greening, urban greening and trying to marry those sort of really active public spaces that cater for a lot of people with, you know, making sure that we are improving, you know, drastically improving biodiversity, sustainable drainage, greening yeah, it's quite complicated.

Speaker 2:

And then you're always having to be one step ahead of policy. I'm sure as well, we're still waiting for the government to catch up on the kinds of incentives and investments we need to make our urban spaces much more inclusive, much more accessible and much greener for greener for the health of everyone. Going forward.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I don't think we just want to stick to what's policy, we want to do what's best practice. You know it's well known that the government has let slide some of the agendas that they are bringing forward, but we want to include those original sustainability agendas because that's what we believe is right fantastic and that there's the sort of thing we've always been trying to promote as part of our profession.

Speaker 3:

It's why we're in our profession in the first place, and some policies are catching up and some aren't yeah yeah

Speaker 5:

exactly so. We're just we're just coming back onto brick lane now after our trip along woodland street and hanbury street. Yeah, um, you can hear the, and that's really. That's one of the things you know. I really really notice. The value about the area now is how changeable, experientially, the place is. Yeah, within, yeah, within, literally, you know, 100 metres. You've gone from one of the busiest, most vibrant, most diverse streets throughout the day and throughout the week onto a street which feels much quieter, much calmer, and that's a unique thing about London, but I think actually specifically about this area.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

I think that's interesting because how the site sits between the busy thoroughfare of Brick Lane and then when we were on on spittle street and on buxton street and on to the park, there's quite a transition and that's something we also manage within the character of the site itself. There's a transition from um the west side, which is a more busy, more open, to the more green and more residential on the other side of the site.

Speaker 2:

So that's the sort of grain we've been working with yeah, does your work impact these streets that are sort of already quite well established in terms of accessibility?

Speaker 4:

um, not these in particular, um, these sort of lie beyond. But I think what's quite nice about these streets is that you see the variation, you see people inhabiting the edges and that's again really intrinsic to the area and it's got that sort of I mean, not now because it's Friday morning, but you come here at a lunchtime or on the weekend. It's got that sort of I mean, not now because it's friday morning, but you know you come here at a lunchtime or on the weekend. It's got that buzziness and that's, you know, something that we, we want to sort of um encourage in the sort of western part of our site in our proposals and having that space for um, you know people to sort of you know people don't go stand in the middle of a space, do they? They like to congregate at the edges and allowing for that and allowing all the uses around those spaces to almost personalise their space outside, it's quite interesting.

Speaker 2:

Do you mean, and does that affect the markets at all? Because the markets are a big sort of part of the urban fabric. Here is is that?

Speaker 4:

I think there's that's. That's where our open spaces can facilitate those kind of uses. I think we've done a lot of testing of all the different events that truman holds at the moment, making sure that they they work within our public spaces. It's those sorts of things are so necessary for the brewery.

Speaker 3:

Um, they host a whole, you know, host a whole host of things, but, um, yeah, that's great and we want to, we want to keep that going yeah, yes, it is about those edges, all the edges around the spaces, so that that's all been choreographed, in a sense, I suppose, to get the most benefits of the open spaces and how the um, the activities that can go into the yards, um, that work with the building frontages, um, around their edges, um. So yeah, our, our influence, I suppose, is more on the periphery of our immediate as, rather than the streets here, but then now coming into elizia, which which then comes yeah, so we're just going.

Speaker 5:

Now we're back into the brewery here. This is, uh, one of the transitions between the public streets and into the brewery. Um, and we've crossed the number of those as we've walked around today, and I think it's worth talking, maybe a little bit about those conditions that we're sort of working with and, in essence, the place is used throughout the day, throughout the week, from early morning coffees to late night drinks. You know, from early morning coffees to late night drinks. Yeah and um, that's something which you want to continue, isn't it? On the the, the new ellens, the site that we're looking at definitely.

Speaker 4:

I mean when people think of the truman brewery, they probably most think about this space yeah um, this is you know where we've got jujus, um, and various other sort of food and whatnot that happens here. I mean, for instance, this is an example of how changeable it is. Now it's a car park and it changes all the time and I think keeping Ellie's yard sort of pretty much as it is and our proposals are a light touch it's essentially to facilitate those things that will happen in the future, things like climate change. We want to make sure that the environment remains comfortable to be used in the way that it is into the future. So that's essentially.

Speaker 4:

What we're looking at is primarily sort of urban greening in this, but only to make sure that those edges are the ones that are green, not the central space. I mean just, for example, there are massive trucks that come in here and turn around. It's a major part of the functioning of the site, as well as the events and the tables and chairs and markets and things like that. We never want to impinge on that, because that is what the Truman Brewery does for a lot of people, but we just want to make the environment slightly more pleasant, slightly more pleasant, slightly more forward thinking. Um, and yeah, just again, increased biodiversity. We want to make sure that biodiversity is a thread throughout the whole, the whole project you can see that there's there's not much biodiversity sort of when you can look around here.

Speaker 3:

So it is that kind of balance. You know, having a few trees in here will be fantastic. It's not going to be a park, because otherwise the site can't kind of function. So it's balancing the functionality of that with bringing in a bit of biodiversity, which also will, you know, providing shade and help develop the character further as well.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, yeah, I think it's important to say as well, like in any neighbourhood and any city, not every space needs to do everything, and I think that's been an important challenge that we've had to kind of manage and debate between us, and it's been a real healthy debate. As you mentioned, we've got a very diverse team here, lots of different perspectives, whether that's just within the design elements of the team or whether that's in the wider elements of the team, such as the research or other aspects of that. And that's always a balance is trying to weigh up these different priorities, different factors. And if this space, for argument's sake, was to become a park you know a green park you know what would that do to the ability for the different spaces to change in the dynamic way that they do, so that every weekend when you come down, there's something new to observe and it it makes you feel like you want to come back and explore and experience the area at different, different times of the year, different times of the day. So I think it's always a balancing act with any development project. I hope there'll always be different perspectives on that, as well as to whether you've got that balance right, and there probably is no right in that.

Speaker 5:

There's just a set of assumptions that we all make, hopefully doing the best we can in the most responsible way we can, both for the owners and the operators of the site, but also, really importantly, obviously, for the public, the community, but particularly on a site like this, for the tourists, for the one-off visitors who come here as well. It's, um a really, really important part of um london's tourism economy, this site, um and brick lane and the wider area as well, and trying to see all these things as positives and things that we can celebrate, things that we can enhance, as opposed to things that are, you know, challenges for us to to overcome. But um, yeah, that's, that's really where we are on this one. I mean, it's such a key destination. Are, you know, challenges for us to to overcome, but um, yeah, that's, that's really where we are on this one I mean, it's such a key destination this you know, we've all been here when it's, you can't barely move down.

Speaker 3:

So you need that open space. It needs to be hard working, you need to get the trucks around, you need to be able to get people, um, to be able to spill out and have seating and things here. So it's, it's getting's, getting all of those things to sort of work together and, like we said before, we're never at a finished state. This is part of allowing things to organically kind of happen, which is historically how the Truman, I suppose, has operated. All these things are kind of quite ad hoc. I mean that's why we love it. It all just things just happen. You know why we love it Just things just happen.

Speaker 3:

It's the laying things just happen which does bring the tourists. There's a massive tourist destination that I'm here, as well as facilitating play space for local children. They're the extremes that we're trying to cater for.

Speaker 5:

That's the enjoyment challenge, isn't it? That's what we, that's what we all enjoy and, yeah, enjoy coming together to, to try and work through, and hopefully, this tour has been quite a good example of that.

Speaker 2:

But, um, yeah, well, giles, rosie, thank you so much for walking us through here and explaining how your designs are going to improve this space for everyone that there'll be, you know, places for comfort and for longevity, especially when we face, you know, as we face, climate, climate change it's happening now, so, um, I think you know it's, it's. You've shown us just how integral the in-between spaces are going to be. Uh, for enjoyment and for, you know, interactivity and porousness of the redevelopment as well. It sounds really interesting. I can't wait to see the results of your work. Thank you so much for your time today.

Speaker 4:

Thank you for having us, thank you, thanks, yeah all right.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening to the grow places podcast. For more information, visit growplacescom and follow us at. We Grow Places across all social channels. See you next time.