Grow Places

GP 18: Truman Brewery 01: People, Place, Community: Masterplan with Buckley Gray Yeoman

• Grow Places • Season 1 • Episode 18

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Welcome to the Grow Places podcast, your go-to source for understanding the dynamic interplay of people, growth, and place. 

In this special episode, we take you to the heart of East London, broadcasting from the iconic Truman Brewery. Here, we're collaborating with the Truman Brewery and local stakeholders from Brick Lane, Spitalfields, and Banglatown to bring forward planning applications for underutilised parts of the site.

Tune in to hear how this redevelopment promises to open up previously enclosed areas, create new opportunities for local businesses, and enhance the daily lives of residents and visitors alike.

Joining us are guests Holly Wells, Associate Director, and Amr Assaad, Director at Buckley Gray Yeoman, as they discuss their roles as Masterplanner and building designer in the Truman Brewery redevelopment. Discover the masterplan behind this project, aiming to deliver a modern yet heritage led project, while fostering sustainable growth. Learn about the new public spaces, residential areas, and creative hubs designed to make this site a vibrant, inclusive community for all.

For more information on the Truman Brewery project visit trumanbreweryconsultation.co.uk.

For more insights and updates, visit growplaces.com and follow us @WeGrowPlaces on social media. 

Join us as we explore how thoughtful urban planning can create places where people and communities thrive.

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the People Grow Places podcast where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth and place Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, tom Larson. Today we have a special episode recorded on site at the Truman Brewery in East London, where we are excited to work in partnership with the Truman Brewery and local people in Brick Lane, spitalfields and Banglatown, truman Brewery and local people in Brick Lane, spitalfields and.

Speaker 2:

Banglatown. Here we are on Dray Walk at the Truman Brewery. I'm joined here by Tom Larson from Grow Places, as well as Holly and Emma from Buckley Grey. Yeoman Guys, introduce yourselves. Who are you? How are you involved?

Speaker 3:

in this project and what are your roles and responsibilities? I'm Holly Wells Associate Director, very much involved in the day-to-day running of the project and helping in a big way along with the planning submission.

Speaker 4:

I'm Amr Asad. I'm a director at Bucky Ray Omen. I'm looking very much at the master plan and the design of Block 2.

Speaker 2:

Fantastic. And what's a master plan? What does that mean in the context of the Truman Brewery? What's going to happen here?

Speaker 4:

Well, what is a master plan is an interesting question. It's probably made up of two parts. On the one hand, there's setting the vision, setting the tone of what an area should change, should evolve like, how it should grow and adapt. There's the other part, which is about the mechanics of master plan, of finding frameworks and ways in which the design can can work to allow for the specific technical logistics and other side of things like that.

Speaker 2:

So a master plan really does deal with two, two sides and that's across the whole site for the redevelopment of the Truman Brewery with grow places. Is that right?

Speaker 4:

Yes, so the master plan is actually made up of a core site which is now by Brick Lane, spittal Street, buxton Street and Woodseer Street. There are other two associated schemes, one on A's Yard and one on Grey Eagle Street.

Speaker 2:

The core site is actually 1.2 hectares just off brick lane and is that currently where you can see the brick walls and you can't quite get in? I think I see a lot of vans going in and out of there. Um, there's a lot of graffiti and it's right next to um allen gardens but no one can kind of see inside from the public. Is that the space you're talking about?

Speaker 4:

That's exactly right. I think everybody knows and has ideas and memories and visions of Brick Lane. It's a peaceful place. The area which we're talking about, the site, is currently one which is very much enclosed, very much inward-looking and has very little interaction with the public at large. What we're looking to do is really transform that as part of the master plan. It's funny when we talk about the master plan I mentioned earlier about the idea that's made up of the vision and so on.

Speaker 4:

Here the vision is really made up of three aspects what we termed people, place plus. First thing is actually to do with the idea of what this area is, what's so special about this area, both in terms of the essence of Brick Lane, the essence of the community, but also the essence of what's special in the space itself, the buildings, the forms which you're looking to keep and retain and work with. The next aspect was to do with people and how we then bring people in by means of new yards, new passages, new undercrofts, new thresholds, finding a way to really blend inside and outside and bring people in and let that be a space to enjoy. And the last is the idea of plus, this idea of how the master plan can allow sustainable contextual growth to happen in the site.

Speaker 2:

So kind of taking what's there already and making it even bigger and better.

Speaker 4:

That's exactly it and very much. That's the mantra of the scheme Finding the best of existing, finding the way the building works, the master plan works, the site works, and really playing on that and working with that.

Speaker 2:

And when you use the word form, does that mean a building? Is that what you're referring to? Are you going to knock everything down and then rebuild everything anew? What's going to happen in terms of the buildings on the site? Holly, I think you might be designing one of those buildings.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's right, we're looking at a central block, block two, which is right in the heart of the site. Um has no street frontage, um. So, yeah, the way that those buildings have come about has been carefully considered, with everything that Amara has just mentioned there. But, yes, we are also master plan architects.

Speaker 2:

But looking at block two in the middle okay, and when you talk about the master plan, how many buildings are going to be built? What's that going to look like at the end of this duration of time and how long is that going to take? I mean, when will people see the results of this master plan?

Speaker 4:

Well, there's a few questions there In terms of what's happening, in terms of the built forms and so on. There are currently seven proposed buildings five within the core master plan and then the two associated sides. The master plan is designed by five different architects, all local architects, all award-winning, and what we're looking to do is create a real sense of plurality in terms of the design, in terms of what happens. There are different uses within the master plan. We have workspace, we have event space, we have F&B offers.

Speaker 2:

Is that food and beverage?

Speaker 4:

That's correct. We also have a residential space and event space. We also as part of Marsplan. A big part of it is the creation of two new yards, yards, which will be publicly accessible and really open up the site for the first time to the public large, so we can start to bring in some of this joy that you see around used by vans and trucks and worker people who are trying to make deliveries happen, and that could potentially all be public space.

Speaker 4:

Absolutely.

Speaker 4:

Actually, in many ways, that sort of addresses an interesting point as we walk through what is Draywalk into what would soon be turned New Draywalk. The master plan builds on a previous planning application and a previous planning approval that we got in 2021, which changes what is a car park into something which very much harkens back to what's happening on the Truman Brewery estate and brings some of that life and energy into the space what's happening on the Truman Brewery estate and bring some of that life and energy into the space. That approval, or that proposal, does look in itself to create new active frontages on an existing building. So take an existing building which is currently dead, as you can see here, and provide new frontages, provides new frontages on a space which is currently the car park and provides a new yard. The master plan does much the same. It takes existing structures and uses them in a more clever, more um, useful way. It creates new yards and it creates new buildings in place of sheds, in stores, whatever else and critically, they're um yards for people rather than for cars.

Speaker 2:

Is that right?

Speaker 4:

absolutely. I mean the uh. This idea of people and yards and what this space should be is absolutely central. We want this to be something which is endured by all. The yards are urban things, you know. There are spaces where you know um people can congregate, where things can happen, where shop fronts and retail frontages open up and are enjoyed. But there are also places that can change and adapt. It can hold events, it can hold launches of businesses, it can create moments that are special and memorable for all to enjoy.

Speaker 2:

So tell me a little bit about what the master plan has in it. You know, I know that you've just said that you're going to under-design it, which is really exciting, because then lots of character and identity can be, you know, delivered by the people over time. You know, for that to be shaped. But literally, what are you designing? I mean, what's going to change, what's going to happen? And then are you designing anything within that space as well?

Speaker 4:

more specifically, so, as we've just walked here through what is to be called New Dre Walk, New Dre Walk picks up on all of the character, the energy, the essence, the spirit of what happens on Dread Walk across the way.

Speaker 4:

What we've done here as part of a previous application is to provide a new build which brings with it the opportunities for retail, a new public yard on a space here, the refurbishment of a 1960s building behind, and actually what it does is it keeps pieces, keeps a lot of the joy of the surrounding and the context, but looks to open it up, change it from what is currently a car park with a bounding wall into something which is much more open, much more inclusive and actually really encourages there to be more joy in a space, but in a way which is not designed. We're not suggesting that this is going to be removed. The space is going to be too cleaned up. We don't want that at all. We want there to be the rough and ready. We want there to be the ramp that remains, the bits of wood. We love that.

Speaker 4:

That's all part of the area and part of what we want to retain and keep.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, so these are some of the process and the moves that Truman and Buckley Gray have gone through as part of the Woodless Street consent and the work that we've been doing with Ammar and Holly.

Speaker 5:

The team and the wider team is to think about well, how can the existing neighbourhood, but also then this new piece which is already consented, how do we then add the next pieces to that in a way that feels really natural, so that once these developments come forward, actually you should be able to flow through these spaces and not necessarily feel the, that the master plan starts here or that the, you know, the the old brewery ends there. It should feel much more integrated, much more natural than that, and I think that will be the success and that's also something that obviously a lot of people would be really interested in. It's such a key site in this neighbourhood. What is the future of this part of the Truman Brewery? How does this become open? How can this become more public, more accessible, enjoyed by more people? They're some of the things that we're trying to grapple with and positively address really through this project.

Speaker 2:

But this is very much distinct from the Woodseer Street, isn't it that scheme this?

Speaker 5:

one in 2024 yeah, the one, that one that's coming forward now. Yes, it's a separate project, it's a separate application. It's. It's obviously for the truman brewery. It's all part of the truman brewery estate and, um, we want to continue, you know, working in with those building blocks that have already been established, and then think about how we can improve things, go forward really it's funny, isn't it?

Speaker 4:

one of the statements or one of the brief points that the client always came back to is the idea that buildings that we design, the spaces that we design, should look better with graffiti and artwork than it does before, and it's that idea of change and adaption and things that are sort of unknown which is actually part of it when you design a master plan. What's interesting about this opportunity is that it is an opportunity just a moment in time, and actually we're doing something which is for now, but in years time it'll be completely different and change again, and we love that. That's what it's made this space so special that it's never been designed. You know, something which has adapted and grown. This is an opportunity and actually we'd like to hope that in the future it will change there again and they'll adapt and improve, and that is, I think, really part of the essence of the area this idea that's not fixed, it's not rigid, it's something that's loose and can change.

Speaker 3:

And super creative as well, isn't it? It's basically a canvas for graffiti performing art. It's just the backdrop for that. People come here on a weekend to enjoy that aspect of it. So trying to make sure that we accommodate that is really important.

Speaker 2:

So I mean, what are things that people are going to experience, or how are you hoping that people will use this space differently, or what's your sort of the favorite part of it, the thing that you think is going to be most effective in the, in the master plan scheme?

Speaker 4:

I think the answer is the fact that we are here and there's nobody else here Right now.

Speaker 4:

You know we're in a beautiful sunny day and, apart from ourselves, there's nobody here enjoying the space.

Speaker 4:

If you look at where we're sitting, where we're standing right now, this will be a part of a new yard, one of two new yards in the master plan which we are creating. If you look at the site as it stands right now, we have a lean-to structure bin store, car parking and so on. What we're looking to do is actually enliven this space with new public realm opportunities for new yards, greening the opportunities for event spaces, retail spaces, spaces, f&b spaces to really draw people into the space, as I mentioned earlier. You know, when we, when we spoke to the um, to our friends and locals, when we started the scheme, everyone could tell you stories and memories about things that happened to them in and around the area, about brick lane and everything especially there, but nobody could tell you a single story about what they did here. And what we want is that in the future, this space to be part of that memory and part of people's experience of Brick Lane at large.

Speaker 2:

Nice. So and Holly, you said that you're doing more of the day-to-day stuff you know what are the challenges that you are encountering. You know whether it's from uh, you know, managing a big design team, or whether it's, um, you know local access or well, exactly that right.

Speaker 3:

There's a number of considerations to pull together here, like really key principles, context and heritage, big drivers for the scheme, sustainability as well, everything from the very offset. All of those things have to be considered. So it's just making sure that all of those things are running seamlessly together and it's a collaborative approach. The urban designers as well, like them, informing with their research um the community, integration and just aspects like safety and how people move around the site and how the public feel at certain points in the day around the site, like those are all things that we've had to consider and it's formed and shaped the master plan. So it's yeah, the day-to-day bits kind of all come together seamlessly at the end, um, but when you're in the thick of it, I guess that it can be quite challenging what's going to happen?

Speaker 2:

to happen to all this traffic and all this transportation, these vans and everything that's coming here? Where are they going to go afterwards? What's going to happen to this? Who's using this space?

Speaker 5:

now. At the moment, obviously we're on a site, as Ammar says, that there's no public access really to this site. It's an operational site for the brewery. They lease it out for car parking and there's the odd kind of event here vary from time to time but in essence it's a private part of the brewery that, as Zamar says, has no real memory in people, either sort of public memory or kind of cultural memory of the place.

Speaker 5:

We want to change that by making this much more integrated and kind of cultural memory of the place. We want to change that by making this much more integrated and a much more part of the neighborhood. But the development itself will be car free. Obviously we'll be providing accessible spaces to allow people to access the site, but there'll be no um additional parking on top of that, which we think is really important. You know, this is such a well-connected site, you know is that you have to kind of remind yourself having worked on this project for so long now, but we feel like we could be in zone four or zone five here of london on the outskirts. We're actually, you know, 10 minutes from liverpool street.

Speaker 5:

We're in one of the most connected, most central bits of the city and to be stood here in 2024 with a site like this, is really quite unique, as is things like this. But yeah, this, this site, really is it. It's not best utilized. Um, there's so much more that that can happen with this site and, frankly, should happen with this site in terms of sustainable urban development of brownfield land. That's well connected.

Speaker 4:

Um, it's a great opportunity to do some something really really amazing and for the long term I mean in terms of that, you know, in connections, you know as a brownfield site, like you rightly say, it's very much inward looking.

Speaker 4:

But if you look at the context, look at the surroundings, apart from Brick Lane, ellie's, yard, allen Gardens, it's in fact blessed with a huge amount of really interesting context. But right now it's something which is in itself sort of isolated and looking very much in itself. It's something which is in itself sort of isolated and looking very much in itself, the master plan looks to connect to those spaces connect to Spitall Street through new passages and undercrofts and so on, connect through a new development that we just turned block three passages straight through to Allen Gardens and bringing that into the space Again, passages through to Brick Lane. And much of the master plan is about taking what is currently an enclosed, almost zone four-esque space and finding it something which connects to the wider context and really open it up and what about the difference this is going to make to the surrounding residents and businesses?

Speaker 2:

what kind of impact do you think that will have on their lives?

Speaker 4:

well, I think it will. So what we're looking to do, as I write, as I mentioned earlier, is build on this brief by the client to say more of the same, but better. What we'd like to hope is that the the master plan will provide the framework to allow the space to grow in a way which is contextual, which really does sort of just continue what happens on Brick Lane and bring it into the space and allow there to be benefits both in terms of new retail, new activation, new event spaces, but also new yards, new passages, really opening up in a forgotten size, creating it into changing it to something which is um and to be enjoyed by all yeah, and absolutely that in terms of the spatial side of things, but then in terms of the, the brief, you know this we want this to be a vibrant mixed-use project and addition to this location and to bring the vibrancy and diversity that comes with that different mixed-use, different activity at different times of the day.

Speaker 5:

So that includes new housing, which includes new affordable housing and new housing for families. That includes new workspace, which includes creative workspace and affordable workspace, let out on different lease terms and different financial profiles as well, as Emma and Holly have touched on. That includes a really vibrant and active kind of ground floor layer, which includes retail shops. It includes places to eat, but also community spaces, places to just come and be as opposed to come and be doing, and so we think that's really kind of important part of the mix as well. And then we set the framework for some of those things, both in terms of the brief from the client all the way down, and we set the kind of physical frameworks for those things. But then over time it's then how do those things operate? What are the people actually going to do to enliven these physical buildings, like we're seeing all around us?

Speaker 2:

So, holly, I'm going to come to you now. Yeah, you are doing some building designs as well as the master plan. That's right, talk me through that. What are you delivering?

Speaker 3:

So, along with the master plan, design we're looking at block two, which is going to be in this site here, um, adjacent to listed building, and, yeah, basically taking over what is backyard market at the moment and integrating that. So looking at, uh, public use at ground floor, which will be market essentially. So, looking to work with what is ingrained in the site already. This building is going to be mainly workspace from the first floor up and it's going to be at the heart of the site, crucially so for us, one of the key drivers of this particular building has been how we make use of all of those key views, because we don't necessarily have a street frontage on block two right. So it's shaped by the view, looking towards the chimney, towards the cooperage, and that has really helped us form and shape what that building is ultimately going to look like. But, yeah, it's got its neighbours to respond to as well. So it's the one building that's had to push and pull a little bit because it's right in the heart of the site.

Speaker 2:

And how I mean? Talk me through the basics. How tall is it going to be? What's you know? What's it going to be like on the ground floor and what materials are you making it out of?

Speaker 3:

I mean let's start with materials so it out of. I mean let's start with materials. So we we've had big discussions about circular economy and how we can make use of some of the materials that we find on the site. So there's been a real research-led project into everything that you see around you here. Very ad hoc nature of these industrial buildings. So what can we reuse as a starting point for some of the cladding? Obviously, a predominant material around here is brick industrial buildings. So that's led us to what the overall aesthetic has been. It's quite a modern warehouse is probably how I would describe it. In terms of its height, it's one of the higher blocks on the site so I can't remember off the top of my head exactly how many metres tall this is, but it's about eight stories and the ground floor considerably higher than that, because it's got a use that's going to be public, it's going to be market space, so that does desire a slightly higher floor to ceiling height. What kind of market space will be inside?

Speaker 3:

So we're looking at a continuation of what's already there, but maybe artisan led, definitely an arts focused market space fantastic and then so you recycled brick, potentially yeah, that's definitely something that we are looking at, and mainly to do with the metal products that we're going to be using whether we can refurbish some of the galvanized steel that we find around the site. Can that be used for some of the plant areas or some of the ground floor areas? We don't want this to be too polished right. Look at where we are. It has to integrate into this site, so it's finding an appropriate place for those things and it feels like the right building to do that with.

Speaker 2:

Fantastic. And what about the kind of green and sustainability credentials of the building? I mean, you know we love a redevelopment, but we do know that it uses resources, um, from the planet that we have and as finite resources, what kind of thought is going into making the building as green as possible?

Speaker 3:

I mean that process just starts naturally from the beginning. Now, right, it's not an afterthought, it's just integrated. So it's a fully naturally ventilated building, as they all across the site they all are. But even down to the type of structure that we're using you know monitoring the amount of concrete that we're using in terms of the frame superstructure of the building All of that is measured and considered. So, yeah, that is kind of a starting point really now for us, the sustainability measures and definitely the circular economy piece as well Fantastic.

Speaker 2:

And what about the integration to the master plan more holistically? Does this building, you know, speak to the master plan in a particular way that perhaps the other architects' buildings might not? Just because it's the same design, as you know?

Speaker 4:

surely there's a certain style of delivery, or Well, as Holly says, block 2 is located at the heart of the master plan, so it has a relationship with all of the buildings. It has a relationship with the two yards. It's really an important sort of backdrop in many ways to the way the other architects have designed their own buildings In terms of the relationship to them. It's almost as much about, as Holly said, creating these views, creating opportunities where the paths through the building and around the building lead to almost an improved experience when you do arrive at the yards or when you do arrive at the context and so on. This building doesn't have, as Holly mentioned, street frontage, so you almost have to find it, find it through Brick Lane. That's part of the joy, something which sort of sets it apart from many other buildings that you find. So, yeah, it's very much about being part of the master plan and central to that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and it doesn't from Allen Gardens, for example. It hasn't got a facade like that. That's viewed from 10 metres back, it's very much. You know, from four metres across, looking up is how this building is going to be viewed, Right? So you have to consider all of those things like window placement, ventilation, all of those things, but it's unique in that aspect of the overall master plan.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, what's interesting is you talked on it a second ago about how, how the brief or how the aesthetic looks. It's actually all of the architects have had the same brief design a building which is of its context of brick lane, and what's interesting is that there's been a lot of um opportunity for people to, for each of the architects to interpret that brief in their own way. So what we end up with is a design which is very much sort of enjoys a pluralistic approach of the five different architects working in five different schemes. Each of them has started with the same brief, but the way they've interpreted that, the way they've responded to their own context, has provided richness in the results and we think that's really part of it.

Speaker 4:

Block two if you look at it, it's an extremely tough building. It's a very sort of you know, muscular thing and it really does play up on the industrial nature of the neighboring buildings and you know the sort of industrial nature of this estate at large. Other buildings may be more finessed, but they themselves refer to the sort of victoriano of the, of the warehouses and so on. So there is that um, that play and the sort of the joy in in the many, many hands, which we think is, uh, again, part of these, just the richness yeah, I just add to that.

Speaker 5:

I think you know, having worked on a number of master plans in the past, either with a single architect or actually also including a number of different architects, I think the role of the master planner, the way that Buckley Gray have interpreted that, has been a really refreshing challenge.

Speaker 5:

Actually, I think because the way that they've approached that is, they haven't been overly restrictive on certain rules or parameters within the master plan, which some master planners do take. For example, all your floors want to be this height, your windows want to relate to this, so that the buildings have a kind of they all maybe start to feel quite similar. What we've tried to do here is to have some guiding principles, as Ammar says, which is some of what the client requires, which is this kind of more of the same, but better in terms of what Truman wants to offer, but then this heritage-led approach, but then allowing the creativity to come through and the approach to come through underneath that. I think it's a really interesting and it's actually turned out as a really, really enriched project because of that and I wonder you know who, who kind of made this the center of the um redevelopment.

Speaker 2:

I mean, was that from your brief, tom, or was that you guys as master planners, saying you know what? I'm sure that this is going to be a sort of a linchpin, um, you know, building in in the center of this kind of fabulous new urban realm that'll happen here. What? Where was the sort of masterstroke behind that?

Speaker 4:

so the master plan design, if you almost rewind back, you know, as we touched on earlier, very much initiated by idea of opening up the site opening up the site.

Speaker 4:

So if you look at the um, the drawings, at one point you'll find that actually many of the um lines that we took were to do with how you create links back through to island gardens, to bricklay, to split street, bucks tree and so on.

Speaker 4:

Once we found that, once we found those thresholds, those, we found opportunities for built forms, actually, in many ways the built forms sort of land where many of the current built forms exist, and it also created natural points for public squares, public yards to occur.

Speaker 4:

We also noticed in the master plan or sort of we're aware of the fact that there are great buildings or great structures in the master plan as it stands, block H is a really that there are great buildings or great structures in the Mars Plan as it stands, block H is a really handsome building, as you can see here in the Mars Plan, the boiler house, the cooperage, and around those created natural moments for the yards, for the public spaces to sit.

Speaker 4:

So once we combine the framework, this idea of the roots and the passages, alongside the sort of requirement or the hope of really sort of making the best of the existing structures, we found natural, almost a natural figure ground around which the new builds could sit sits. Block two, as I mentioned earlier, is in place of an existing shed, but what it does is it itself looks onto these yards, these passages, and itself is almost totemic in the way all of those ideas come together Ideas of re-enlivening an existing use in the market, the idea of bringing people through from brick lane, the idea of how the master plan should speak with the yards and how it should open up to the wider context. So yeah, it's a small piece, but it kind of does speak about the wider idea.

Speaker 2:

So we're outside the Truman Brewery walls now we're in Allen Gardens and I mean what effect is the master plan going to have on the neighbours and the public outside of the Troomenbury? How does it affect there?

Speaker 4:

Essentially they say outside. I think that's a really important word because right now there is this idea of outside and inside and much of the master plan looks to blend those things together. We are blessed in many ways with having a really great number of local amenities great streets, great passages which the master plan looks to integrate within the developments that we're proposing here. If we look at Buxton Street, where we're standing, obviously there's our gardens. There is a very narrow street that runs along the perimeter. As part of the proposals, what we're looking to do is create new thresholds, new entry points into the master plan. That really brings lots of the gardens into the master plan but also brings some of the urbanity back into the space.

Speaker 4:

Here we're looking, as part of the proposals, to create a widened streetscape, a widened pavement that makes this area a lot more hospitable, so when these vans go past you're able to walk past and still enjoy the spaces. We're also looking to provide activity and natural surveillance onto the park and allow the park to become something which can be again benefiting from the activity that we're looking to provide here. So this idea of inside-outside we think is really important. Actually, hopefully, it will not necessarily feel that way. In the future, it will be something which is much more of a space.

Speaker 2:

And there will be a building here, won't there? Yes, so tell me about that from a master planning perspective. What does that do?

Speaker 4:

So this is termed Block three. It's designed by Morrison Company. It's a wonderful building, eight stories in height, and it's comprised of active ground floor frontage with retail, event space, cinema, and above we're looking for new workspace. So in many ways it sort of replicates what happens along the master plan at large, where that mix of active uses and the workspace really work together. The block is itself divided, divided into two pieces. That divide is announced by a new route that runs through the two buildings. It links Allen Gardens with the new Cooperage Yard and on the other side we're looking to create a new path that links effectively the boiler house with the new chimney yard, two new yards in the master plan. This building does sort of create those routes and creates the links through the buildings.

Speaker 2:

And what about bringing, I mean, does the park kind of end here or you know, does it still? Are you going to carry that through? I know biodiversity is a really you know big sort of topic that we're trying to grapple with and we need to introduce more bees and birds and trees and you know, and shrublands for foxes and things like that. So what does the Truman Brewery? What are you going to do about that in terms of introducing, I mean?

Speaker 3:

introduce as much green space as we can Like. This is look at everybody that's dwelling here now it's a genuinely joyful place to be on a sunny day but how we can kind of carry that through into the space and make sure it's as biodiverse as we can, with green roofs where we can get them. You know, it's a it's a pretty dense urban setting, but making sure we we carry that through and integrate where we can. Um, we certainly will try and make sure that there are spaces to dwell in. Or if you're, you know, rushing to get to nursery with your kids on a morning, and this is a cut through that, it becomes like a natural meander from maybe what would have been a walk around the site to now taking you through straight through our site, and I think that's a really nice thing that it's becoming opened up to what was quite a bounded private space.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, it's really interesting when you see these things, which are truly transformational, and how this part of the city operates, something that is so closed turning into something that's so open. You know, it's really going to be interesting to watch over time about how people adopt that and how people use it in their daily lives, as you're saying, because you, we can sort of plan for these things to a certain extent. But then, as you say, when the local mom on the school run, whatever it might be, sort of starts to use this as a route through and it becomes part of their daily life, part of the daily routine, that's when it's going to really feel stitched into the neighborhood, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

yeah, definitely. Yeah, how will people experience the ideas within the master plan on this eastern side of the street?

Speaker 4:

so we're now walking down spitter street, the master plan. In much the same way that we're looking to open up the master plan on buxton street, on brick lane or woodside, spitser Street again has the opportunity to become more permeable and really draw people into the site. As we're speaking, we're walking past the Coop Bridge, a wonderful building but one which is again unpenetrable, sort of very much bound on the street. What we're looking to do is make this a key threshold into the master plan and something which really embraces the history, the joy, this kind of specialness of the area, and make that part of a daily experience for individuals.

Speaker 4:

When you spoke earlier, you mentioned how, or you questioned how, people might use the space, how they find space. In many ways, what we want this master plan to be is one which grows and changes and isn't prescriptive about how people should use it. This is the way you come in, this is the way you must use the space, this is the way the various units in the master plan will be used. It's something which should change and grow and it's places where one person might use it in a completely different way to another person. Where one person might use in a completely different way to another person. They might find it over time and not necessarily be told in a very um rigid way that this is how you must walk down this street and this is how you must enter. You should find these spaces. There should be places to get lost in in a really, uh, joyful way not in a scary way, not in a scary way but in a way which, hopefully, you know, is something that becomes part of you, part of your ownership.

Speaker 4:

You know, if you find a space, that's your discovery, something that you can own for that moment, and I think that is actually really important for how you engage with the space.

Speaker 2:

A lot of what I think about when, as we've been recording these podcasts, is children and and spaces for children and and for teenagers, and I've I've come to, you know, use these um city bikes that are. You know that everyone's kind of getting getting quite hooked on uh, that go really fast and you can deposit them anywhere, and I sort of like this idea of being able to, you know, come into the Truman Brewery on a bike park it and your friend's waiting just there. You know, I think a lot. You know, are you envisaging that teenagers and young people will be using this space as well as older people with maybe a bit more income to spend, you know, at the brewery, for example?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, the idea of who would use the space and how people will use the space has been part of the conversations from day one. Funny enough, we all have three young, we have young children, and if you were to step into one of the design team meetings, all the time you find that time and time again always referred to how, like you say, you know creators will use the space, but also how kids will enjoy space, how they'll be able to cycle up and, you know, just leave their bike and enjoy the public realm, how they'll be able to enjoy some of the spaces or the community offerings that we're providing, how the connections back to the wider surroundings will be improved to be safer, to be more hospitable, and I think that has been absolutely paramount in terms of all of our thinking.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, and I think also, you know, that's not something that one group of people from one company or even one design team can sort of solve on our own.

Speaker 5:

It's about trying to get a diversity of voices into that conversation.

Speaker 5:

So on a project team level, obviously we've got a number of different architects, but we've got a number of different specialists as well who are involved in the project, who are bringing different angles, different perspectives whether it's public, who are looking at some of the mapping of the area to work at, the land use and and how the spaces work and feel, or space hub, who are looking at the, the landscape design, etc.

Speaker 5:

Etc. So trying to do that and then also through the consultation process, trying to have a series of consultation events which offer the opportunity for people to to input the project rather than just being presented with a kind of final outcome. So we're trying to get as many sort of voices and perspectives into that process as we can do. But then it then has to kind of all come together into something that feels considered and holistic. And that's really particularly where the master planners role I think is really important in that is about kind of listening and learning, learning but then kind of stitching it together and making some decisions about what the place is going to look and feel like, which is obviously a real responsibility I think, on your um, your point about teenagers, though, they manage to claim a space, whether it's skateboarding or it's hanging.

Speaker 3:

That's what you do when you're a teenager you come out and you can. You can very much feel the vibe of like we've just walked past some guys playing basketball over there, like that quite naturally migrating into those public spaces that we're creating. It very much feels like it could be a home for something like that and those kind of things happen quite naturally. But yeah it, it very much wants to feel like a space for all of those ages and, um, like we've, we've.

Speaker 2:

We've considered that from the very beginning holly, this, this side of the street, obviously feels very different, uh, to the other side. We were just on. It's a lot busier, the cars going by, the shop frontages, etc. So how has the design, uh, the master plan design, sort of impacted this side of things? Um, and how is what is sitting here already, um, impacted your design in?

Speaker 3:

return. Well, we've just walked past the banglertown cash and carry. This is very much local businesses around here, right, so it's. It's how we grow on that and how we provide spaces in the master plan to to expand on that and, um, you know very much trying to integrate that side of things. It's not just about hipsters coming on a night out, it's about making sure that it's ingrained with what's already rooted here and very much already the culture of this particular side of the site.

Speaker 2:

So we're here on the corner of Brick Lane and Hanbury Street. Where does your master plan end and where does the outside world, as we talked about before, begin, and how are you going to blur those lines?

Speaker 4:

if you want to blur those lines, yeah, well, physically the master plan is sort of made up of a number of parts.

Speaker 4:

The core site is bound by Brick Lane, woodseer Street, spinnon Street, buxton Street. There's also a plot which is the end of Hanbury Street, another plot, which are on Ellie's Yard and which are on Ely's Yard and a park called Block A on Grey Eagle Street. Now, the mass ban is very much bound by that as a thing, but in terms of how the design is sort of blends with the wider context, it's absolutely wider than the red line as it's described, because it's part of the context. All of the people that we see here walking through it'll be part of their lives. So we have to make sure that when we're designing these spaces, it's something which is for all. It's something which is not simply for the micro location that we're talking about, but one which will enrich people's experiences of the area, be they workers, be they locals, be they residents, be they people who come for a weekend. It's something which is part of that experience and part of the joy we're looking to bring people and.

Speaker 4:

More people, more people, of course. Yeah, make it something which people want to come to and enjoy Like a destination, Absolutely Right now that space it something which people want to come to and enjoy Like a destination. Absolutely Right now. That space is something which is not enjoyed, it's not accessed. What we're looking to do is find an opportunity to make it part of what people think of when they think of Brick Lane and they think of, you know, sort of the joys of the area.

Speaker 2:

And when you use the word context, you know, are you referring to the existing shopkeepers and the existing tourists and shoppers here? Is that who you mean when you talk about the context?

Speaker 4:

Absolutely. I mean, this area is very special. What we have is a real rich of people from different areas, different backgrounds different ages.

Speaker 4:

We have a hugely creative scene. We have a wonderful Bangladeshi community and all of the sort of the joys that come with that. What we're looking to do in the mass plan is what really creates something for all, something which can be enjoyed by all of those um people, and in much the same way that the um you know, the local shopkeepers that you mentioned and the local um you know, uh, businesses have thrived and have grown and have adapted. We're looking to do the same thing there again. Talking of which, here is our main guy.

Speaker 2:

Hi Gerard, hi Gerard, dominique, dominique, new coffee roasters Fantastic.

Speaker 4:

You're going to be on our podcast now. Literally number one the best coffee shop.

Speaker 2:

As long as there's good coffee, great local business. There he is. So I mean, that's just a small example, perhaps, of maybe have you been in correspondence with him before about what's happening here.

Speaker 4:

Sorry, the jury over there.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 4:

So Jerry is, obviously he has a local coffee shop, fantastic coffee shop, but he's, you know, part of the scene, part of this area and actually, you know, in many ways he wasn't planted here by some sort of master plan or some sort of you know request.

Speaker 4:

He's somebody who's grown his business organically, you know, taking what was probably a redundant space and creating it into a small community hub. Actually, what we're looking to do is really, in many ways, build on that sort of theme, working forward. We're not going to say this has to be a shop, and this has to be this and this has to be that. What we're looking to do is provide units that can allow the master plan to grow and adapt over time.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, and that's maybe something that if people are wondering well, how does that relate to what we're submitting for planning? Because planning we do. Obviously we have to make some decisions, we have to put some lines on paper, we have to put some colors for different uses, and that's very much the case and the intention. But it is very much that it's an intention for how this place may operate In 30, 40, 50 years' time. Who knows quite what the uses will be? But the spirit of the place, the ethos about how it's operated and run, are things that we feel really confident in and that they have that flexibility to change over time. This was once a brewery, a varying, different functions for the brewery everything from storage to where the horses live, to the boiler room, et cetera and now it's totally different. And that's what a good place does. A good place is flexible enough to be relevant to different generations, to be relevant to different uses, and that's the ambition really I mean, there's so much happening in this yard.

Speaker 2:

Here we're in ellie's yard, um, and there's, you know, people on bikes doing a bike tour. There are people delivering garments, presumably to a shop nearby. We've got security stuff. We've got people eating and relaxing. What are you going to do here and are you going to change it? And if so, why are you changing it?

Speaker 4:

Well, firstly, we love the space. We agree with you. It's amazing. Look at all those things just mentioned, that vibrancy, the mix, that is what makes a space special, and we're not looking to change it. We love that space and we're looking to build upon it. One thing, one sort of mantra that I always come back to is don't undo, do that essence, that specialness that makes a space what it is, is not something that you want to change at all. If anything, all we're looking to do is build upon that. Not something you want to change at all, if anything we're all looking to do is build upon that, look to build with in a way which gives more of that but better. And that's something which has almost been part of the brief from the start and something which we are sort of always keeping back of our minds when we're designing and when we're looking to provide this master plan yeah, and that's not easy, you know.

Speaker 5:

It's not just related to energy, it's related to the whole place. It's a very difficult challenge that to sort of strike between finding the essence of what makes things successful now but then thinking about how you can improve. And you know you mentioned the logistics, you mentioned the loading here, or we've talked about a number of other examples on this, this and I think that idea about places growing, places changing, places, evolving, doing so in a way that's really respectful of the history, celebrates where they are now but is also optimistic about where they can go. I think that's a real important part of the project to think about those different aspects.

Speaker 4:

It's worth saying that you know what we're in a what was once a very working yard. Much of these buildings that we see here, the frontiers that we see here, are actually backs of buildings. These were the loading bays. You know where, very sort of matter of fact, utilitarian things were happening, but they have changed to become what we see today. So the idea of change isn't a bad thing. We're not looking to the word change could mean change the essence. No, we have to keep the spirit. The spirit is wonderful and it's what makes the space special. What we're looking to do is adapt it to allow it to continue to improve, to enhance the way it is used, to make it that kind of special place so, holly, I'm going to come to you for the final question.

Speaker 2:

What are you most proud of?

Speaker 3:

honestly, I think probably collaboration. Um so as a design team, as a set of architects, um, it's been such a rich variety of knowledge sharing and the conversations and discussions that we've had in meetings has been very inspiring. But also the other disciplines that then feed into that, so the landscape architects, the urban designers, socio-economic consultants all of that, along with the public engagement, our consultations, it's all been like such relevant information that's fed into this scheme and it's just helped shape the whole project. So I think it has been a real, true sense of collaboration and I think we would say we're probably most proud of that.

Speaker 2:

Well, Amma Holly, thank you so much for your time today. It's great to learn how you're impacting the project as a master planner and as a building developer or designer. Thank you, Thank you.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening to the Grow Places podcast. For more information, visit growplacescom and follow us at. We Grow Places across all social channels. See you next time.