Grow Places

GP 02: Designing Places for a Better Life: Insights from Chloe Phelps of Grounded

• Grow Places • Season 1 • Episode 2

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What does it take to create spaces that truly improve the quality of life for all? Join us as we uncover the secrets behind designing meaningful places for everyday life with our special guest, Chloe Phelps, founder of Grounded Practice. We explore Chloe's journey from working at Brick by Brick to starting her own female-led architecture practice focused on housing and communities.

Discover the importance of understanding the viability process when it comes to delivering successful projects, and how Chloe's experience with larger sites has informed Grounded's approach to design and development. We also delve into the impact of using natural materials in creating humane buildings that positively affect users' physical and mental wellbeing. Don't miss this thought-provoking conversation that highlights the importance of creating places that cater to the needs and desires of the people who inhabit them, and how this shared mission drives both Grounded and Grow Places.

See you next time!

http://www.growplaces.com

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the People Grow Places podcast, where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth and place Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, tom Larson.

Speaker 2:

Welcome back. We're so grateful to have you all with us today on our mission to improve quality of life for all. We're joined by Chloe Phelps, founder of Ground and Practice today, and I really hope you enjoy this conversation, so let's take it away. So, hi, chloe, how are you doing today? I'm alright, how are you? Yeah, good, good to catch up again, hamilton you, since you went on our lovely walk around Croydon and Forest Hill.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, you definitely had the best weather out of anybody who's gone on? one of those tours It's like we went the following week and there was snow and rain covering sideways so our lovely blissful sunny walk was not repeated.

Speaker 2:

We even had your colleagues dog there.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's Lola, she's our marketing manager. Exactly, exactly, very good, yeah, i can't claim that one as my own, but she's not in today. Oh, that's good.

Speaker 2:

So that was during your time, when you were obviously brick by brick, and now you're grounded.

Speaker 3:

We are.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, just tell me a little bit about grounded and what you're up to now really.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so grounded is a female led architecture practice, and we focus on kind of bringing our unique blend of public and private sector experience to a commercial architecture practice with a real focus on housing and communities, and that's something that we're really passionate about. So I think, coming on to some of the conversations that we might have today, i think it's one thing that joins us up is that we're quite passionate about creating places for the everyday, which is fundamentally where we all live.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly, and that's really where we are at Grow Places as well. The idea of the ordinary, the everyday, is actually what we're all living and that's not just for us in the built environment but for everyday people on the streets, our families, our friends. So if we can do something to kind of help those people, i think that's the best sort of service we can do, really working in the built environment.

Speaker 2:

So, I've always been interested in you and your journey, kind of as an outsider, and obviously we've been talking over the years during your time at Brick by Brick a little bit, but also more recently at Grounded, but I've always been interested. Take me back a little bit to thought processes that were going through your mind when you were sort of embarking on a career in the built environment, and why you've maybe sort of moved between different fields as you have.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, i think. I mean I think it's quite an interesting one. I never really set out to set up a architecture practice. I always actually thought it was something that was not necessarily something I'd be able to do. It didn't have rich parents who had a pool house that needed designing, which, when we were at architecture school, seemed to be the way in, and so I kind of really just followed my nose really throughout my career and made of it kind of made the opportunities in front of me turn into something really. So a bit of hard work, a bit of kind of finding my way through and a bit of kind of staying true to what I wanted to do really. So it's, i think, in terms of why I chose architecture. I don't know.

Speaker 3:

I think I started out wanting to be a graphic designer and then did a bit of work experience and found it a little bit interesting, but it's a little bit flaky for me. I was just like you know what's what? well, i'm not criticizing any of the graphic designers out there, because I do think it's a very important part of the kind of the world, but I just felt that there was something more to kind of that I could get involved in really, and I think it's been quite interesting with just one part of, as part of a team with Howard Tomkins and Kylanda Schoenberg, this job in Colchester, which is my old hometown, and it's quite interesting kind of revisiting thoughts around that. So that has been in. You know, it's a new garden community of kind of seven and a half thousand homes and it's right in the right next to the village that I grew up in And I think that's the thought of something like that happening or was it around even when I was a teenager growing up in that village. So I don't know if it's kind of post-rationalization that's coming to mind, but I mean it's certainly when I was a teenager and living in a village and being quite bored, if I'm completely honest, and the thought of that village turning into a town and all the sorts of things that would happen and come with that were quite amazing and quite thought-provoking. So whether or not that had any inkling of anything that we might get into, that sparked an interest in the built environment perhaps don't know.

Speaker 3:

And then that's kind of just led to architecture school and then worked in a commercial practice for quite a few years and then really it was learned and worked on an awful lot there, but I think the one thing that really one project that I worked on at that practice was for Teenage Cancer Trust, which was a very small hospital ward in Birmingham, but it really made me think about the sorts of projects that I want to work on, and watching how the patients that moved into that ward responded to it was absolutely amazing and was one of the highlights of my career at that point And it kind of really told me that I'm doing it because I want to try and make the world a slightly better place, and so that kind of led me to kind of really thinking about what I wanted to do And I'd always had an interest in the public sector when I came out of university.

Speaker 3:

So it was, i think, kind of led me to working in the placemaking team in Croydon, which was really kind of eye-opening and a chance to think beyond the red line of any particular site and start to think about a long-term stewardship of a place and all of the different kind of parts of the built environment that feed into that.

Speaker 3:

And kind of it went from being an architect designing and being very much in control of what was happening on a particular site and working with the client obviously, to kind of designing by guiding and influencing, and that was a very different set of skills as well.

Speaker 3:

And then that led to, i think, to a certain bit of frustration as a result of that, because there's only so much you can influence And I've kind of been doing a lot more doodling and kind of thinking and helping with the region team there about what housing could look like on some sites in Croydon, and then that led to, brick by brick, more of an enabling role, i guess, which again was another seat at the table in terms of not necessarily designing but kind of commissioning architects and thinking about what sort of brief you want to give these people and kind of how do you kind of create something? that's a bit different. So I think I've always just been guided by kind of a curiosity And just all the different parts of that that kind of come together, all the different components of the built environment industry that come together.

Speaker 3:

So it helps a very long and rambling question, but you've had a.

Speaker 2:

Well, it's good. But I quite like these kind of sort of open-ended questions And I think you've explained it really clearly there, taking us all the way from your journey when you were growing up in Suburbia, essentially village life And I was the same I grew up on the outskirts of Norwich And the fields around where I lived constantly kind of got developed and they have been ever since. And you go up there And I don't think just because we work in the built environment, but I think just everyday people as well. They do take a bit of a kind of another sort of cookie cutter development with lots of houses, car born, no public amenities and no extra schools or services, just housing And two car spaces and a back garden, and that's it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So that opportunity kind of for you to kind of come full circle back where you live in the Colchester with Clarion trying to do something there, must be, must feel really good. I know it's obviously very new And congratulations for that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, thank you, and it's amazing. And I think what Latimer and the house building arm of Clarion are really trying to do is kind of really amazing. They've got a very strong vision and ambition for really setting a true example, true exemplar for what a new community should really look like, and not just being housing. It needs to be about places that people work, live, play, grow old, all of those things, and I think that's really really, really interesting.

Speaker 2:

And it's an interesting perspective you have, obviously, and me to a certain extent. We now live and work in London, which is one of the best places in the world really for our industry Very lucky to have that experience. But we've also seen a different side of life. We haven't grown up in London, although obviously everyone agrees that identifying large urban areas on top of transport links like London and other major cities in the UK and around the world is obviously a really key part of a sustainable future. Also, we do need to build houses and densify those areas that are outside of core urban areas where people kind of want to live and have got existing communities. So trying to do that in a sustainable way and have projects like this is really an interesting challenge And I think it's kind of a really needed one.

Speaker 2:

So keen to kind of watch that Yeah, watch that kind of emerge as it comes through. And for me you mentioned about sort of starting out. For me it was always maybe a little bit of a cliche, but I always remember watching kind of grand designs and always wanting to kind of go into the built environment design on the back of that And I haven't really kind of reflected on it too much, but I think it's actually kind of some of those moments in the filming where the couple go on this journey but you actually get to the end and then they're really kind of made up for what has been created for them. Yeah, it's that kind of human aspect of you mentioned when you're going into the cancer unit or cancer sort of charity and seeing that kind of element of building something physical and then having a marked impact on people's lives is quite a kind of good aspect, i think, of what we do.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2:

And that you know your work at Brick by Brick you've managed to kind of steward, as you said, and kind of enable a massive amount of projects there. You know the pipeline was really strong And there was a lot realized but there was also a lot kind of in the pipeline And we saw that when we walked around. So that must feel good to have projects actually physically built now and be able to kind of look back at some of the learnings that come out of those projects and then feed it into the work that you're doing now.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely, i think it's quite. You know we built nearly 800 homes from a standing start in five years across kind of more than 20 sites. And you know there's obviously a lot of press around it, a lot of kind of things that aren't necessarily true And I think people can make a fat what they want. But ultimately, you know, we went from we enabled those new homes and to be able to walk around and look at them and kind of know that those sites were either garage sites or kind of leftover pieces of estate that they're slightly more difficult to kind of grapple with. But it's an amazing thing as kind of an architect to be able to have been part of that. So it's like we designed two of the sites that got completed far more on the drawing board.

Speaker 3:

But you know, to have that kind of body of architectural talent that we were And engineering and development and all the other parts of it not just architects always get kind of sung about that really you know, worked together, kind of rolled the sleeves up and kind of cracked on with that wider program. It's quite an amazing thing to be part of And I think bringing that into what we are we're now a small practice. It's like, whilst we've kind of now slotted into that in terms of many people's minds, we do come with kind of a lot of experience behind us. We've been involved kind of very closely, not just through our own projects, but through overseeing other architects projects on site, through planning before the architects were involved and writing the brief and all that sort of stuff. So it's really starting to feed into our work and ultimately, the key for us is we want to see things built.

Speaker 3:

We're not here to create CGI's and what we create, models, obviously, but we get involved in projects we want to see happen. I think that's really important. So that is fed into our design process as well. Particularly, we're working on a lot of small sites at the moment. So it's just got to be really sensible about what we do. It's finding the right balance between designing something that's joyful and is a really lovely place to live, but actually making sure that it's deliverable and buildable and robust and can be looked after and all of that really boring stuff. But if you don't do that, it can remain on paper for decades.

Speaker 2:

That's something that me personally starting in architecture, then moving over to development That's a real key thing that I enjoy about the process of development is actually that vision on one side and reality on the other side. A good project comes from when you can find the middle ground within that, particularly when you're talking about building everyday areas, whatever you want to call it, areas that aren't that effectively are affordable for people. The development, viability and the economics of it is so important to try and get projects built. Particularly at the moment, everyone knows where the economy is, where construction prices are, it's very difficult to actually get things built. And being pragmatic about design decisions and the brief setting, particularly on some of these complicated, small sites So important at the front end, isn't it?

Speaker 3:

We're getting to the point now where the clients are still commissioning buildings, but we're finding that clients are really nervous about saying what the budget is, which makes it really difficult to design stuff And make sure that it is truly deliverable. I get it. As soon as anybody names a price, it's really difficult to say, well, you've got to work to that budget because they know that it's going to be a different budget A month's time or whatever, but it's really challenging at the moment in terms of that regard.

Speaker 2:

I think everyone's grappling with the same thing really at the moment, aren't they? It's kind of how to do it. Obviously it can't be for all clients, but I think the best project relationships is where there is actually that openness about saying, ok, this is our objectives, this is what we're looking to deliver, because in no other industry would you really get someone designing a product that doesn't fit the market and the requirements that are needed, whether that's the client's requirements or whether that's the end-users requirements. So that kind of responsibility on the full design team, but also the architects, to try and understand some of those other bits that go around the design. It's really important to make successful projects and you having that kind of broad set of experience, not just you personally, but within the team and also within your kind of slightly broader network We're sat in an office here, aren't we? We've collaborators from different practises. That can only really strengthen, i think, the approach.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I think that's been a huge shift in the industry, certainly from my perspective, over the last 10 years, i mean slightly. I don't know if the industry's shifted or I've just ended up in a different part of the same industry. It's always been like this. I don't know, but I find everybody's a lot more open or like there's certainly a generation which is about openness and honesty And let's talk about what the ambitions are.

Speaker 3:

Money doesn't need to be a dirty word that we don't talk about. It's a key part of making successful projects And I think the more the architects understand the viability process where the funding comes from, what are the big risks on the project, kind of the better the final product will be. And I think it is just that. I mean we are creating. I think parallels are always drawn between architecture and manufacturing, but we are creating a product and time and time again it's a unique product which is just a really bizarre thing to do. You just wouldn't do in manufacturing, and I think we need to start thinking about it like that far more and not saying that you know we'll just roll out the same thing everywhere, but it's we've got to think about, kind of the people that live in these homes and places that we're creating and design it for them and kind of put more research and development into it And all of their post occupancy analysis. You know we just we've got to stop designing stuff and walking away. Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2:

No, i completely agree. And is there any? does any learnings kind of spring to mind, you know, when you talk about that kind of post occupancy piece, particularly from maybe some of the residents who have kind of been lucky enough to live in some of the developments? I think?

Speaker 3:

we kind of started to do I started to do a bit of it before kind of We kind of left break by break. But I think one of the key things is that you need to get that baseline sorted, and I think people aren't I think that people are starting to do it like quality of life foundation And it's something that we're looking to do as well with some of the people that we're working with is kind of you know what is this? what is the baseline, before you start to get involved. Otherwise you've got nothing to measure it against And it's got to be qualitative and quantitative.

Speaker 1:

Got it out.

Speaker 3:

And you've got to have that start off with. I mean, granted, we didn't have that start off with because it's kind of become it was always talking about post-occupancy analysis But we did start to talk to different people, both from a qualitative point of view and a quantitative point of view, and get and it was really interesting, you know, in terms of starting to say, like we interviewed some people who lived in the Pomp House, which is one of the projects that we designed as common ground architecture, and it was, you know, things that they really liked, all the things that were in the original vision, in the brief, which was amazing. They were just like, you know, it's really characterful from the outside, really like that. It's characterful inside as well Love the flooring. It's just all the kind of things that you just kind of you think about and it's written in the brief and then you translate it into the design and then somebody picks it up.

Speaker 3:

You're like that's, you know. I mean fine, that's kind of reiterating what we already wanted to do, which is great. But then other bits of feedback. We're like I wish there was a window in this wall. And you're like, yeah, why didn't we put?

Speaker 1:

a window in that wall.

Speaker 2:

I don't know.

Speaker 3:

They were like, well, actually it wasn't. I mean, originally it was going to be a party wall, but then the design changed and it came off the boundary a bit, so it meant that actually we could have had a window in there. And they were like, yeah, there's an absolutely killer sunset in that direction and we could just about see it when we're on our balcony And you're like, oh, you know, things like that that you just find you're not going to add that in. But there are lots of those sorts of things you wouldn't have kind of anticipated. But it's just interesting to think about how people are living in the space that you designed, where they put their furniture.

Speaker 3:

What's really annoying where's the radiator? is that in a really annoying place, and things like that which you know. And there's also all the kind of overheating analysis type stuff which is coming in which I think is very much needed to be rethought about how we design our homes. And then, yeah, lots of M&E comments and queries and things which I think will just, i think that's something that the industry has to grapple with. You know, is MVHR the right thing to be putting in? Anyway, got very detailed, but what do you mean? how did Stanhope do with regard to PoE?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah well, you know lots of, you know lots of PoE kind of does happen, i think, but it's not necessarily the qualitative side of things that you described And I think you know kind of proof is in the pudding really like living in these developments is something that probably everyone should do. you know, i haven't myself actually lived in a kind of modern day new build. I'd quite like to at some point in my life, but you know, we both live in a kind of span, don't we span?

Speaker 1:

development from the 60s.

Speaker 2:

So we're both span geeks exactly And you know, i think there's some good learnings that kind of come from that And almost those houses in the 60s are kind of, in some respects, kind of most had some of the opposite issues to some of the things you're mentioning now in terms of, you know, no insulation, massive glazing, beautiful to live in, you know, in certain months of the year challenging in others, and now this kind of sort of sealed box mentality is, in a way kind of almost the opposite of some of that, and you know there's probably a sweet spot in the middle somewhere that we kind of need to find, really where you know buildings are a bit more humane, that you know they allow the user to kind of do what they want.

Speaker 2:

You know there's a very kind of intuitive thing about opening a window. you know when things feel hot, you know not necessarily just for lying on. you know the mechanical systems to kind of do that for you.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and it's like I remember being taught on day one at architecture school buildings must be breathable. It's really important we use natural materials And we've gone so far away from that in the industry with kind of a real focus on passive house and the living, which is great, but I think we've got to remember that's one way of doing it, but it's just become the brand that everybody's like well, we're going to get zero carbon. We have to do that And it's. I think, what's interesting about kind of smaller sites and smaller developers and development is whether there's the opportunity to explore properly natural building materials again And, you know, getting us away from that reliance on mechanical systems and kind of sealed boxes and getting back to them all. Passive house, passive house That's a spell, yeah, yeah yeah, no exactly.

Speaker 2:

And I think actually the smaller sites is where that innovation is going to happen, because as soon as you get into the larger developments, as I've found, the regulation just bites. You know you get over certain high limits or certain new numbers.

Speaker 2:

Warranties and And you know that opportunity to innovate is kind of lost. But equally the other issue the smaller sites have is that the margins are so thin. You know if land prices, construction costs, tricky sites, tricky neighbourly issues, you know it's kind of getting squeezed from both ends. But from a material's perspective I totally agree And I think if we can get into much more kind of regenerative materials, regenerative processes and thinking, i think that's only going to be good for the buildings we deliver, but also obviously for carbon footprint that we're leaving behind. And then hopefully from a user's perspective, from their physical, mental wellbeing, being more connected to sort of more natural materials in different forms, can only be a positive really.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, definitely, and it's kind of, you know, even going down to timber frames and things like that. It's like you're only going to be able to do that on kind of smaller developments now.

Speaker 2:

Well, at the moment.

Speaker 3:

And yeah, i think, actually I think they can be. You know, they can bring an element of cost efficiency as well, yeah, and so, yeah, be interesting, yeah exactly.

Speaker 2:

Well, I think you mentioned to me once that maybe your next role will be as a contractor, so maybe we'll ask that question again once you've been at the sharp end of delivering some of these things.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Well, let's see. So I've got one final question for you, chloe. Yeah, and it's a question from our previous guest, so I'm going to actually ask you at the end of this to write a question for the next guest. Yeah, but our previous guest asks what piece of advice would you give yourself five years ago?

Speaker 3:

I chill out. Yeah, that's a good one, yeah, and I just think I think I've always worked hard and I've always there's been. I think my career has been a mixture of following my nose but also working quite hard and probably too hard at times, and it's just kind of taking a step back and saying it doesn't need to be as hard as you're making it out to be, and you kind of got to kind of relax and let the shoulders down Occasionally, get them out of your ears.

Speaker 2:

Bring back some of those lockdown vibes. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3:

Definitely Don't like chill out, but not too much.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, just kind of take it a day at a time. Yeah, it's a marathon, not a sprint, it is.

Speaker 2:

And that's really good advice, chloe, and that's probably a good place to end it today, but I'm really grateful for your time and you know all of the work that you're doing here at Grounded. I'm really excited to see, kind of you know, how things evolve for you guys over the next few years. Thank you very much.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening to the People Grow Places podcast. For more information, visit growplacescom and follow us at. We Grow Places across all social channels. See you next time.